WowŠattempted discussion of religion/theology/faith on the Leeds List! Whodathunkit!!!?!
Camels: Check. God: Not so much. Michael A. Gardiner LAW OFFICES OF MICHAEL A. GARDINER 110 West ³A² Street, Suite 950 San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619.238.9800 Fax: 619.814.3727 E-mail: mgardi...@gardinerlegal.com Confidentiality Notice: This electronic mail transmission, including any attachments, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for review by the party to whom it is addressed. It may contain attorney client or attorney work product privileged and confidential information. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and promptly delete this e-mail, including any attachments, without reading or saving them in any manner. Unintended transmission shall not constitute waiver of the attorney-client or any other privilege. On 1/10/13 4:00 AM, "leedslist-requ...@gn.apc.org" <leedslist-requ...@gn.apc.org> wrote: >Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:01:07 +0000 (GMT) >From: "n...@6haroldplace.co.uk" <n...@6haroldplace.co.uk> >To: leedslist@gn.apc.org >Subject: Re: [LU] [non-LU] I love it when people argue about religion >Message-ID: > > <1783243006.1054495.1357815667954.javamail.open-xcha...@email.1and1.co.uk >> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > >Sorry Gav, but no...the short version of this to my eyes is "I believe in >Christianity, therefore it is right." (I'd be happy to substitute >"religion" for >"Christianity" in that summary) > >"Evidence" - is scientific, impirical and fact based - there may well >have been >a historical figure called Jesus (son of Mary and Joseph), but there is no >evidence for him being the son of a deity. That does not diminish the >validity >of some of the things it is claimed that he said, or the philiosophies of >life >he is said to have espoused. That makes him a sound bloke, not the son of >any >god. > >Similarly a refusal to believe in deities does not mean that life is >"grim" - >life is beautiful, wonderful, awe-inspring, awful, confusing, confounding >and a >million other things (including grim). > >I don't expect or need a reply - we differ, that's all - nor do I want to >continue a "religion war of words" on the list...although I heartily >agree with >Dave Brennan, that the diversity of discussion on here, is one of the >reasons >that I stay on here (and press delete when not interested) - but I >couldn't let >your email pass. Human history is filled with great stories - that is >part of >who we are and part of the joy of being human, but evidence to back the >claims >of super-human existence, simply does not exist - no more for the bible >than it >does for Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table or Aesop's Fables - >but we >use them to illustrate "ways of living" or "cautionary tales"...that is >fine. > >On 09 January 2013 at 17:42 Gav Burnage <gav.burn...@googlemail.com> >wrote: >>OK, here we go then, a quick one-off response for a change ? with >>apologies and please delete / jog on down the digest if you?re >>uninterested, easily offended, or an atheist botherer. >> >>To be honest, I?ve got no real interest in religion, whatever it is, and >>no >>need or desire to defend it. >> >>My Christian faith, on the other hand, is based on reason. It?s perfectly >>reasonable to assume that we and the universe we live in are the creation >>of an enormous power way above our comprehension. (And if it?s true, it?s >>profoundly unreasonable to think otherwise). >> >>It?s also based on evidence ? Jesus said he was that powerful God >>intervening as a human being to get us out of the fine mess we?ve got >>ourselves into. (Happy Christmas!) >>To that end, he lived our life, died our death, for us ? and then >>physically rose again to a new kind of existence. >> >>That is a very unusual claim: then, as now, dead people, especially those >>beaten up and tortured to death, don?t just rise up to a new kind of >>life; >>they remain stubbornly dead. But that?s the claim here ? and it?s a >>straightforward historical Yes/No prove-all: If Jesus really rose, >>physically, then happy endings are here to stay, along with faith, hope >>and >>love, and mankind really is onto a winner. (Happy Easter!) >> >>If he didn?t, Christians are the saddest cases in existence. At least, >>that?s what the bible says. >> >>The more I find out about the bible, the more gobsmacked I am by it. So >>many different books, stories, documents, and accounts, written by people >>(ostensibly at least), for people, over hundreds, even thousands of >>years, >>which join together in such a coherent and profound whole, showing how >>God >>loved and saved us by becoming one of us. The Bible says how he said he >>was >>going to do it, and then says from first-hand eye-witness accounts how he >>did do it. And it gives a few tantalizing pointers into the amazing >>future >>ahead too. No historical documents have been subject to as much scrutiny, >>claim, and counter-claim, and still held up. Check it out. >> >>There?s reason, there?s evidence, and there?s also experience. The >>spiritual experiences I and millions of others have had confirm that >>Jesus >>is alive and active right here and now. >>And now I?ve seen too much, and there?s no going back. Drug addicts and >>drunks clean and sober, living well. People in even the worst, most >>inexplicable kind of suffering helped, healed and given heartfelt, >>tangible >>hope, enough to hold on. And there's no one beyond this. Not even me. >> >>If there is no God and everything is random, then good and bad and even >>reason and life itself is all a specious temporary irrelevance on a >>mind-bogglingly enormous scale, and ?we?re all doomed? in a lugubrious >>Scottish undertaker accent, doesn?t even begin to come close to how grim >>"things" really are. >> >>And finally: Football is all about teamwork and support networks in the >>joint pursuit of a higher goal, at every level. How can footie fans, of >>all >>people, not "believe" in "organized religion"? All the singing, >>handwaving, >>and self-righteous offence-taking? All the worship of player-idols, all >>the >>baying for the blood and sacrifice of inadequate managers? All the boring >>legalistic stattoes? All the ritualised drinking of alcohol? The heaps of >>cash, and the hopes of trophy glory? All the mindless turning up even >>when >>it's boring and rubbish? And not to mention the endless hatred and even >>the >>ongoing, non-metaphorical smiting of enemy tribes? Flip me, even this >>email >>list requires organization, policemen and cash to keep going. >> >>Mustn't get on the high horse tho, I've been there and done all that too >>of >>course (apart from the smiting, obviously?). But then, like I say, I'm >>not >>really out to defend 'religion'. I think the local church is the way >>forward - a bunch of people trusting Jesus meeting to worship God and >>work >>with him and each other in and for the world. And in that fallen world, >>there are well-run clubs and badly run clubs and indifferently run clubs; >>there are good supporters, bad supporters, indifferent supporters etc >>etc. >>That bible book also suggests it?s going to be like this till Jesus shows >>up again to finish off once and for all the good work he?s started. >> >>Back to lurk, and to work, >>Cheers, >>Gav >>DaRealRev, Church of the Real Man ? Jesus Christ >> >>(Sorry for shamelessly nicking your old tagline John :-) >>_______________________________________________ >>Leedslist mailing list >>Info and options: >>http://mailman.greennet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist >>To unsubscribe, email leedslist-unsubscr...@gn.apc.org >> >>PETE CASS (1962 - 2011) Rest In Peace Mate > > _______________________________________________ Leedslist mailing list Info and options: http://mailman.greennet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist To unsubscribe, email leedslist-unsubscr...@gn.apc.org PETE CASS (1962 - 2011) Rest In Peace Mate
