On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 00:14 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:57:28 -0600, "Lowell C. Savage"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >Greetings, Frank!
> >
> >Frank Gilliland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in part:
> >> >No disaster plan to evacuate people who didn't have the means to leave?
> >> >Take a look at: "http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26";.
> >>
> >> Then the question is why the plan didn't work, just as I stated above.
> >
> >It appears that it didn't "work" because it wasn't "implemented."
>
>
> That certainly seems to be the case.
And who's plan was it? Who's responsibility?
> >> The anticipated needs were grossly underestimated by the governor.
> >> It's clear that she shares some blame for this fiasco.
> >
> >That's forgivable. Not writing a new SOE declaration when the conditions
> >change is not. And while the initial report claimed there had been NO SOE
> >declaration, it appears that the "Senior Administration Official" and/or the
> >reporter were talking about a second one that was not forthcoming and
> >somewhere it was confused by thinking there had not been one at all.
>
>
> Hmmm..... that sounds like a lot of backpeddling to me. Did any of the
> other states declare a second SoE? For that matter, was a second SoE
> even needed after the first one had already been established? I don't
> think so.
It depends, sometimes they are required.
> >>
> >> I've heard of the National Guard, if that's what you are referring to.
> >> But the gov doesn't need permission from the president to activate the
> >> Louisiana National Guard. Nor does she need a declaration of a SoE.
> >
> >So. If the LA NG was not sufficient to the task, then it's Bush's fault
> >that the NG from the other states weren't hot on their heels?
>
>
> If a lieutenant can't get the job done, isn't it the captain's
> responsibility to find someone who can?
Nope. On some occasions it may be, but not in general (no pun
intended).
>
> >From what I've read, Bush pushed Blanco and Nagin for mandatory
> evacuations -before- the storm hit.
And this brings up the question why did he have to? I can see two
reasons:
1) Political
2) Difference in opinion/conclusion of risk
The second is forgivable IMO. The first is not.
I don't know which it is. I had been leaning toward it being a
difference in risk assessment. Now I am squarely back in the middle
after seeing political maneuvering was clearly involved.
> After it was apparent that they
> couldn't get the job done then Bush should have stepped in.
And it takes time for this to happen.
> Although
> I'm not sure that's what happened. It may be that Blanco and Nagin
> were expecting federal help as prescribed in the state's emergency
> plans, but that the help wasn't forthcoming. Either way, FEMA is doing
> an absolutely incompetent job, due in part to Bush's slashing of the
> agency.
No they are doing an incompetent job because they are a) generally
incompetent and b) not the right way of doing it.
> >> > Is there
> >> >anything in there that would allow a Guard unit from another state to
> >> >operate in LA? No.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nor is there anything -preventing- her from asking for and allowing
> >> out-of-state Guard units from operating in the state.
> >
> >Did she?
>
>
> Yep. NG units from 25 states helping in all affected states are under
> the single command of the Louisiana Adjutant General.
Because she refused to let the federal government handle it. Right or
wrong, that is what happened. IMO if you don't let me drive you to the
store, you don't get to blame me for you hitting a tree on your way
there.
That said, I like the guy in charge. :)
> >> > Is there anything in there that would allow active-duty
> >> >military to operate in Louisiana (other than the arrangements for the
> >> normal
> >> >operations on or between in-state military bases that are in effect
> >> during
> >> >normal times)? No.
> >>
> >> Nor is there anything preventing such activities.
> >
> >Only a rather obscure little "Posse Comitatus" Act that specifically does
> >just that--in the absence of a request from the governor.
>
>
> It appears that there was indeed a request, or there wouldn't be an
> LHA full of Marines docked in the city under the command of the
> "Federal Joint Task Force Katrina".
Not necessarily. The POTUS can seek and obtain permission to do so when
the governor refuses to take the appropriate measures. It takes time,
however.
> >> > Is there anything in there that would allow for unified
> >> >command and control? No.
> >>
> >> Nor is there anything preventing such activities.
> >
> >Except the afore-mentioned "Posse Comitatus" Act that requires the
> >governor's permission for the federal government to send troops in.
>
>
> But evidently it does not require a declaration of a SoE.
Correct.
>
>
> >> >and when the fecal matter hit the circular ventilation device, she wasn't
> >> >willing to open things up any more. Limbaugh's show today, included a
> >> clip
> >> >of her excusing herself because Bush had "presented something so
> >> complicated
> >> >that I needed more time to think about it."
> >>
> >> So? She might be a little slow, but at least she's honest about it.
> >> She has publically admitted that she was overwhelmed at some point.
> >> I'm sure that would have happened to a lot of people in her position.
> >
> >Does that excuse her for being the bottleneck in getting aid to the citizens
> >of her state?
>
>
> Loaded question: You said "THE bottleneck". I don't believe that to be
> the case. She may have not responded appropriately to the warnings,
> but since the wind stopped there has been nothing preventing FEMA from
> doing it's job except FEMA.
And the state and the governor. At least, if you assume it to be the job
of FEMA to actually go do these things as opposed to the other work.
> >> BTW, do you know what Bush was doing while the storm was hitting the
> >> city? Taking guitar lessons and attending McCain's birthday party.
> >
> >When he could have been doing, what? Twiddling his thumbs waiting for the
> >storm to pass over NO?
>
Exactly. Life goes on. The world does not and should not come to a stop
because of a hurricane approaching.
>
> >But I suppose that it was Bush's fault for assuming that with a mandatory
> >evacuation order, the local officials wouldn't need further
> >(insulting-to-their-intelligence) instructions to load up school and
> >municipal buses with the indigent, impoverished, the home-bound, and the
> >sick and hospitalized. Yeah, I suppose that's his bad.
>
>
> No, but it would have been prudent for him to take charge when he saw
> that the situation was beyond the capabilities of the local and state
> governments, as was obvious even before the storm hit. And to respond
> as quickly as he did after 9/11. It would also have been good not to
> slash FEMA to the bone (and appoint a bone-head to run it). And to
> fork over a little money for the wetlands that would have helped to
> protect the city. Etc, etc.
The wetlands weren't the problem. The system everybody is saying should
have been bigger was.
Like someone said (paraphrase from memory):
"the problem is everyone is that unlike anyone else in Louisiana, the
Mississippi River wants to go straight."
There as as many different "solutions" to the problem s there are groups
"studying" it. But all of them boil down to trying to decide the course
and "tides" of the mighty Mississippi.
--
Bill Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--
Random Fortune of the moment:
"I'll carry your books, I'll carry a tune, I'll carry on, carry over,
carry forward, Cary Grant, cash & carry, Carry Me Back To Old Virginia,
I'll even Hara Kari if you show me how, but I will *not* carry a gun."
-- Hawkeye, M*A*S*H
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