Linux-Advocacy Digest #69, Volume #26 Mon, 10 Apr 00 21:13:30 EDT
Contents:
Re: RH linux stable?? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: benchmark for speed in linux / windows (JEDIDIAH)
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ("Keith T. Williams")
Re: Copyrights etc. (JEDIDIAH)
Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine! ("Keith T. Williams")
Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors (C. Newport)
Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible (JEDIDIAH)
Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine! (Damien)
Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible (JEDIDIAH)
Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time....... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Linux Counter - Iceland is most Linux-dense country (JEDIDIAH)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: RH linux stable??
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:35:30 GMT
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:09:38 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>THe end user has no desire to "explore" (your words) at all. They want
>results. Windows gives them that result. Linux does not...Point
>closed.
Actually, the point is rather open despite your attempt to lie
about the nature of Windows and general purpose operating systems
in general. It doesn't merely 'just work under Windows' either
unless you treat the system as something you could have just had
burned into a very big ROM.
Foo doesn't float your boat, then you try Bar.
That's rather the point of being to 'run everything'.
Otherwise, you might as well get an iOpener.
This isn't merely the usual WinDOS ~ MacOS bullshit you usually
spew but something more akin to WinDOS ~ iOpener.
You've not refuted anything I said.
>
>
>Steve
>
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:56:00 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:24:13 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Essentially you have discovered Linux's dirty
>>>little secret and that is, while it is fine for
>>>back room geek stuff, it absolutely sucks on the
>>>desktop.
>>>
>>>You tried it. You found out. Others will and Linux
>>>will quietly disappear.
>>
>> That rather depends on what you do on the desktop. This is true
>> of desktop OSes in general dating back to GEM and System 6 and
>> is not limited to Linux vs. WinDOS.
>>
>> If an end user can't be bothered to explore a little bit, WinDoS
>> will suit them no better and they really should consider getting
>> an iOpener or somesuch.
>>
>>[deletia]
>>
>> This is especially true when contemplating a microcomputer market
>> hegemony built on the utility of 'it runs everything'. Of what
>> value is that if you don't have access to genuine choices or aren't
>> willing to explore them?
>>
>> If you "can't be bothered" on an AltOS, it follows you "can't be
>> bothered" on the 'market leader' platform either. So, either such
>> a use is a hypocrite or WinDOS isn't suitable for them either.
>
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: benchmark for speed in linux / windows
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:36:23 GMT
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:03:07 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Yea but these bozo's in this group are used to doing things the hard
>way so they will never get it.....
...and you are one of them.
[deletia]
------------------------------
From: "Keith T. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:49:21 -0400
Baloney, and besides, if you pay the royalties on public land (i.e., payment
to the public purse) and restore the lands after you finish, why shouldn't
you strip mine public lands?
JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:00:08 -0400, Keith T. Williams
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Where did I suggest that I own an Idea?
>
> The notion that you own it's derivative.
>
> Copyright as a natural right is tantamount to claiming that
> you can strip mine public lands and then claim the result
> as your own little private property. It doesn't matter if it's
> an idea or an expression of one.
>
> >
> >
> >JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> On 10 Apr 2000 01:05:59 -0400, Norman D. Megill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >In article <XT5I4.9651$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> >Keith T. Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>What a load of Horse Pucky. If I express an IDEA and you take the
IDEA
> >and
> >> >>do something with it, more power to you. BUT if I take that Idea and
> >> >>produce something of value with it , whether it is a book or a
computer
> >> >>program, a song or an algorithm, then that something is mine...
> >>
> >> What makes you think you own that IDEA lock-stock-and-barrel?
> >> In all likelihood you used someone elses property or some
> >> common property to come up with that IDEA. So, the end result
> >> is that you are essentially stealing/borrowing from others and
> >> then claiming the end result as your exclusive property.
> [deletia]
>
> --
>
> It is not the advocates of free love and software
> that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
> advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
> one option among many, like in some regime where
> product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
>
> Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Copyrights etc.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:42:25 GMT
On 10 Apr 2000 20:22:16 -0400, Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:21:22 GMT, Bloody Viking wrote:
>
>>That's just it. There's competition with novels and textbooks like crazy.
>>In the case of books, it works well indeed. Same with music. But software
>>apparently is different.
>
>No, it's not. Look at the games market as an example where OpenSource
>has produced jack shit, while copyrighted software ( espicially
Actually, the growing console games market is built on GNU tools.
[deletia]
As far as PC games go, there are quite a few games and engines
available under Free Software terms. It's an area much like
desktop applications. The relative lack of titles has less to
do with the inadequacy of the model but rather the intrests of
user programmers working with the model.
GNU build tools have a 10 year headstart on GNU game code.
Even then, GNU game code is still leading the charge in Linux
gaming. It's just doing so as infastructure rather than the
end product itself (just like with consoles).
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: "Keith T. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine!
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:53:32 -0400
Post Script is a (device-independent(?)) printer language, how the hell
would that help, might as well use PCL, because we'd then all be paying
royalties to Adobe. In fact we'd be better off because PCL is a lot less
verbose, but it's owned by HP.
Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:yxtI4.5187$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In alt.destroy.microsoft Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> : StarOffice is bloated, requiring a goodly 32MB (hardly "using the same
> : old hardware seemingly forever"), and as for file format, there's little
> : guarantee that it won't change. Ditto for WordPerfect, ApplixWare,
> : KDE Office, and GNOME's "office" software.
>
> OK, but with Linux, to mount a CD takes logging in a root. The Dogbert
> can't "just" upgrade and later corrupt the files on everyone else. It
> would slow down the upgrade bullshit. Also, in this Linux office, you
> avoid Solitaire too. The productivity lost to Solitaire would in some cube
> farms justify the Linux conversion! The workers, unable to mount floppies
> even if they could ever find Solitair for Linux, can't just install
> software from home.
>
> Upgrading would be at the discretion of the Admins, not a lame Dogbert who
> doesn't know about Save-As. This would slow it down a lot. Not to mention
> old machines being recyclable as low-traffic servers or terminals of
> different kinds.
>
> Ideally, what we need is an open file format for word processors. And
> there is one, Postscript. What we need is for the DoJ to decree that
> Postscript be made the standard word processor format.
>
> --
> CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680
> First Law of Economics: You can't sell product to people without money.
>
> 4968238 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:46:47 GMT
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:06:19 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Did you go to school to learn how to evade questions with so many
>words?
>
>You speak a multitude of words but in actuality you say absolutely
>nothing...
>
>Is this some kind of a gift? Or maybe a contrived joke?
There is no evasion.
Even applications on Windows itself choose to forsake the
'one true interface'. Some applications never conformed at
all (like games).
Beyond that 'newbie bubble' which likely is quite small
anyways, foolish consistency gets in the way of proper
industrial engineering that considers the needs of actual
specialists (whether they be artists who know what a bump
map is, or sysadmins who know what an IP port is) rather
than trying to turn the tools that professionals use into
a newbie-centric straight jacketed wasteland.
IOW: we have real work to get done and don't want to be
bothered with children's toys.
>
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:53:51 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:48:19 GMT, George Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>>>On 7 Apr 2000 13:59:29 GMT, Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>: Crappy interfaces,
>>>>
>>>>I can think of no interface worse than the one Office comes with.
>>>>But why stop there? All of Windows shares its sloppy, inconsistent
>>>>philosophy. X11 is simple and elegant by comparison.
>>>
>>>Is this the same X11 with the 20+ widget libraries - to guivew it that simple
>>>air of elegance - and complete inconsistancy?
>>
>> Totalitarian consisitency is vastly over rated. For the simple and
>> mundane there certainly is some value in being predictable with
>> respect to those newbies which prefer to always remain that way.
>> However, beyond that point 'consistency' is of no real value.
>>
>> For, a general purpose computer is not ONE single tool but rather
>> a COLLECTION of multiple tools for various distinct tasks.
>>
>>>
>>>>So please, don't try to tell me Windows help is any real
>>>>improvement over online docs and FAQs.
>>>
>>>At least you can search it.
>>>
>>>apropos or man -k doesn't hack it.
>>
>> Whynot? It's just another form of keyword search. apropos just
>> happens to search a particular subsection. You can search the
>> entirety of the manapages if you like: with or without a shiny
>> happy frontend.
>>
>>[deletia]
>
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (C. Newport)
Crossposted-To:
uk.comp.os.linux,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors
Date: 11 Apr 2000 01:32:59 +0100
Joseph T. Adams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: In comp.os.linux.advocacy Mark S. Bilk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: : The reason these three are desperately trying to convince
: : readers to ignore Ballard is that he provides more information
: : about the coercive, fraudulent, and destructive tactics that
: : Microsoft uses than anyone else posting here.
: Much of what Rex asserts is by its very nature difficult to prove.
Please stop croosposting this advocacy crap to uk.comp.os.linux
Do not feed the trolls
Followups trimmed
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:51:44 GMT
On 10 Apr 2000 20:26:57 -0400, Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:06:19 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>> Totalitarian consisitency is vastly over rated. For the simple and
>>> mundane there certainly is some value in being predictable with
>>> respect to those newbies which prefer to always remain that way.
>>> However, beyond that point 'consistency' is of no real value.
>>>
>>> For, a general purpose computer is not ONE single tool but rather
>>> a COLLECTION of multiple tools for various distinct tasks.
>
>Each widget set can ( and in the case of GNOME/KDE, does ) consist
>of a collection of multiple tools. There's no reason to have 200 widget
>sets.
There's really no reason not to either. Once you get out of the
pre-school of the newbie, you shouldn't need be constrained by
the need to pander to morons.
>
>Why do I need two color selection widgets ? Are both really for "different
>tasks" ? AFAIK, both are designed for the sole purpose of selecting colors.
It could be, or it could merely be a matter of style or personal
preference. Such a thing shouldn't really matter in a situation
where the ability to be able to comprehend multiple methods of
presenting an interface pales in comparison to the concepts
abstracted by the interface.
>Ditto with file selection widgets, etc. Differing toolkits have clear
>examples of duplicate functionality. Multiple tools to do the *same* thing.
>And this is the kind of thing that confuses the user.
>
>Personally, I hope they consolidate on QT/KDE and GTK/GNOME. Everything
>else can FOAD, the other GUI kits simply aren't in the same class.
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Damien)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 11 Apr 2000 01:00:38 GMT
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:33:50 GMT, in alt.destroy.microsoft,
Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| In alt.destroy.microsoft Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| : StarOffice is bloated, requiring a goodly 32MB (hardly "using the same
| : old hardware seemingly forever"), and as for file format, there's little
| : guarantee that it won't change. Ditto for WordPerfect, ApplixWare,
| : KDE Office, and GNOME's "office" software.
|
| OK, but with Linux, to mount a CD takes logging in a root. The Dogbert
| can't "just" upgrade and later corrupt the files on everyone else. It
| would slow down the upgrade bullshit. Also, in this Linux office, you
| avoid Solitaire too. The productivity lost to Solitaire would in some cube
| farms justify the Linux conversion! The workers, unable to mount floppies
| even if they could ever find Solitair for Linux, can't just install
| software from home.
An admin can let you mount a CD or floppy disk without being root. I
personally would recommend that. You wouldn't be able to upgrade the
software because you don't have permission, but you might be able to
install it in your home directory. And of course saving from
Solitaire use can be spent on XBill, unless the admin made sure that
wasn't installed.
| Ideally, what we need is an open file format for word processors. And
| there is one, Postscript. What we need is for the DoJ to decree that
| Postscript be made the standard word processor format.
This is very true, but I would recommend XML, it's more extensible.
(I could be wrong, I don't know much about postscript.)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: For the WinTrolls - incredible
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:52:26 GMT
On 10 Apr 2000 20:23:07 -0400, Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:08:22 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>Linux sofware as a whole is a joke...It is a collection of hacked
>>together crap that never makes version 1.0, and rightfully so because
>>most of it sucks....
>
>Yet another lie.
It's not even a lie in as much as it is a vague generalization.
>
>Why do you keep repeating the same lies ?
>
>You're full of shit, Steve. FOAD.
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time.......
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:57:39 GMT
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:13:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>When the folks with all the money, because it really IS about money,
>start pulling the strings, GPL will go down the drain.
Free software thrived well enough before then. That's rather
is most compelling characteristic. As far as whether or not
Free Software on the corporate desktop or server room will
fade out once the Wall Street hype subsides is rather doubtfull.
Those things that are developed Free now will remain so. Furthermore,
there are far more people who stand to gain from Free software
remaining a source of gratis-ware than there are people who might gain
from trying to finanically exploit it as product.
>
>Just a matter of time..
>
>And this is a GOOD thing because all of the half assed, half done
>programs that masquerade as Linux alternatives to Windows will die a
>quick and just death.
>
>Money rules the world and Linux will find out sooner or later.
This realization will only further bolster Linux and Free
Software in general. Consumers that stand to benefit from
free or cheap software outnumber profiteers by a wide margin.
>
>
>Steve
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Linux Counter - Iceland is most Linux-dense country
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:58:33 GMT
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:04:33 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Who the hell cares about Iceland?
>
>Figures they run Linux..>Really it does....
>
>Most folks probably couldn't even find it on a map....
Microsoft: if we can't find you on the world map, screw
you. You'll just have to be satisfied with being excluded.
>
>
>Steve
>
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:44:04 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:54:10 +0200,
>>> Harald Tveit Alvestrand, in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>> brought forth the following words...:
>>>
>>> >Did you ever wonder which country is the biggest Linux user?
>>> >According to http://counter.li.org/reports/short.html the answer is
>>Iceland,
>>> >which took the lead in this information poll from Norway late last
>>month.
>>> >
>>> >If, as is the classic estimate, 1% of Icelandic Linux users have
>>registered,
>>> >there are 19.800 Linux users in Iceland, or about 7.5% of the whole
>>> >population.
>>> >
>>> >That's market penetration. Still some way to go until market
>>dominance.
>>> >
>>> > Harald
>>> >
>>> >Do something that counts! Get counted!
>>> >http://counter.li.org/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> ISTR a news story a few months ago, that M$ wasn't going to make a
>>version
>>> of Windows for Icelandic, but that a group of volunteers working on
>>the
>>> (all together now) OPEN SOURCE Linux were going to "Icelandify" it.
>>> I wonder how this will pan out in the long term, Icelanders are
>>pretty proud
>>> of their culture, and I suspect that given the choice, they'd far
>>rather use
>>> an OS that "spoke the language", as it were...
>>Micro$oft has already released Windows 98 in Icelandic, but that
>>doesn´t change the fact that none of the Office apps have been
>>translated. A group of Linux users is busy translating KDE and KDE apps
>>so the question willl be do you only want an Icelandic operating system
>>or do want an Icelandic environment mail browser WP and spreadsheet ?
>>Micro$oft is unlikely to win this one.
>>
>>
>>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>>Before you buy.
>
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
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