Linux-Advocacy Digest #69, Volume #28 Fri, 28 Jul 00 19:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is "ease of use" a dirty concept? (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish. (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Yeah! Bring down da' man! (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Linux can save you money on electricity! (abraxas)
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary? (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (T. Max Devlin)
Re: VCD/DVD Player and Question about the cdrom ("Rich C")
Re: Linux can save you money on electricity! (Arthur Frain)
Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for..... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for..... (Chem-R-Us)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why is "ease of use" a dirty concept?
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:17:43 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip relevant info on Corel Linux]
I look at Corel and I realize that it is the embodiment of absolutely
every fear that the main body of Linux supporters have always had. It
was a blatant attempt at imitating Windows and it did such a good job of
the imitation that it even brought along most (if not all) of the
problems that Windows has. Why, oh why, did they find it necissary?
As someone else pointed out, Corel was not attempting to provide an
easy-to-use Linux, they were attempting to provide a platform for their
office suite that didn't depend on MS.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:37:52 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Damien in alt.destroy.microsoft;
[...]
>| Boy, if I were a troll, you'd be easy meat, you know that? I new
>| somebody would snap at that "run X over the Internet thing." I'm not
>| saying its not likely, I'm just saying its not common, OK?
>
>I do it all the time. Usually it's only one or two remote X clients.
>Thin-client computing is not in yet.
Thin-client computing isn't out yet, IMHO. The big thick clients that I
use for X are not going to be bearable over the Internet. I know you
meant the other client side, but that's not really the problem. You
*can* do it, sure. You *can* run bigger window managers than fvwm, too.
I never do things that are merely possible on a PC. I'm quite
comfortable sticking to what is easy, TBH. You might call me lazy. You
might call me wise. You might call me a typical end-user.
[...]
>You need X to get people from Windows to Linux, but you only need
>ncurses to get people from DOS to Linux. And if windows was light and
>fluffy, XFree86 would have to be too, and they could probably do it.
Personally, I'd be more than comfortable scrapping current GUI computing
and "starting from scratch" with ncurses, and I don't think the MSdroids
have too much of a point when they forget that lots of people did, in
fact, learn computing on DOS. But "the market" wants a very involved
and complete GUI. I can sympathize with them, even if I think command
lines are the far more efficient, if slightly more limited, method.
[...]
>| No, its going to take real middleware. Not scripting languages
>| pretending to be programming languages pretending to be middleware
>| pretending to be applications.
>
>That's not the Unix way.
Ah, but its the PC way. And the market way. Or so its said. I
personally think that middleware is best left as an abstraction, rather
than a mechanism, but I think its an important abstraction.
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yeah! Bring down da' man!
Date: 28 Jul 2000 16:37:55 -0500
In article <8ls3ne$li4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
John Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>: Again: just sounds like Unix.
>
>I guess we're making progress. A day or two ago it was 'flim-flam', now
>it's just somehting UNIX already has. Even that sounds like a
>simplifiaction though, UNIX certainly has parsed-text files, but I'm not
>sure that they are often used for component communication.
The original unix tools approach was pretty much to assume that
every program had access to the functions of all the others
via pipes. No one would consider writing their own sort
for anything that could feasibly be piped through the
sort(1) command. One of the neat things about this approach
is that by layering rsh in the pipeline, you automatically
get the ability to move any component operation to a remote
machine, and doing everything in text mode eliminates the
bit/byte order problems when the remote box isn't the same.
Plus, of course you can easily dump any chunk to/from files
if you need to debug that step or defer processing.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Linux can save you money on electricity!
Date: 28 Jul 2000 21:38:37 GMT
2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> abraxas wrote:
>
>> B'ichela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > As someone on this newsgroup said quite snidely. Linux can use
>> > the old style of computer equipment called terminals. I was thinking
>> > of this and the latest complaints noted by the National Electrical
>> > Reliability Council (NERC) in reguards to the electrical consumption
>> > of computers expecially in consumer applications. The Nerc reports
>> > point to the increasing demand for electrical power and the lack of
>> > new generating plants.
>>
>> Theyre wrong to begin with, the average desktop machine uses as
>> much power as two lightbulbs. And you spelled 'especially' wrong,
>> you illiterate bastard.
>>
>> > A terminal is not a major power sucker unlike a workstation. A
>> > terminal really draws squat! A Vt100 really only draws perhaps 85
>> > watts.
>>
>> Mine pulls 120 watts actually. The biggest sucker I have is 350watts;
>> and thats a PIII 450 w/4 hard drives.
>>
>
> And the moniter?
>
What monitor?
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:47:12 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Stefaan A Eeckels in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[...]
>> I did not require this. The point is that having a DTD
>> provides a specification for the output. It is of course possible that
>> people will write bare and incomprehensible DTD's in which case things
>> have not been advanced that much. It is also possible that people will
>> write sensible, well documented DTD's, in which case things have
>> advanced a lot.
>
>But the same can be said of any output. The real problem is that
>using XML doesn't ensure that you've got compatible, or even usable
>output. The problem is shifted from "Why can't people use sensible,
>uniform ASCII messages" to "Why does everyone have to invent their
>own DTD's?".
This discussion has been interesting, and illuminating on both sides of
the XML debate. I think this particular line of questioning above is
not simply analogous, but is identical, to a similar question which
arose in the network management space. The Simple Network Management
Protocol (SNMP) and the Management Information Base (MIB) share almost
precisely the same relationship as XML and DTDs. (In the strictest
sense, it is the SMI and MIB which match XML/DTD more precisely, but
that is of no concern.)
It is, indeed, a major problem in the industry that the "success" of
SNMP has merely changed the problem from "why can't people make their
management information more structured" to "why can't people write
decent MIBs?" While recognizing that, I hasten to point out that the
fact that the problem has shifted does not outweigh the benefits of
having SNMP to begin with.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary?
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:52:24 -0500
Perry Pip wrote:
> I can't give you any concrete advice here. But there are different
> ways you can tell some he's an idiot. What I find works for me is
> realizing that I am an idiot myself some times. Sure, my boss has
> faults, but I have them too. When I approach my boss, or a higher
> level manager, in a forgiving non-threatening way, i.e. acknowledging
> that I am not perfect either, they generally listen. But if I am
> condescending in any way, they feel threatened and become closed
> minded. It is also important for me to understand that there are
> things out of my bosses control as well, and not blame him personally
> for that. Of course, this won't always work. If your boss really is a
> *total* idiot, and can't listen to anyone at all, then your best bet
> is to find a new boss.
>
> Perry
My typical method is: try the subtle approach three times, try the
less-subtle approach three more times, try the blatant approach three
times, try the hit-the-dumbass-over-the-head-with-a-sledge-hammer
approach and repeat until it works. I always start with the
non-threatening approach. But the guy in charge of the company I work
for now absolutely will not listen unless you utterly beat him over the
head with whatever concept you are trying to get across. I always try
the polite approach first, even with him. But about the tenth time I
approach the guy with the same topic in mind I pretty much lose my calm
demeanor and blow my top. But, at least I know that I tried using the
*right* approach first.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:08:14 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Phillip Lord in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
> Actually I was dissing the paper clip because its crap, and
>it annoyed the hell out of me when I saw it. What I wanted from the
>new version of windows, was greater stability, more flexibility, and
>less bloat. What I got was a paper clip. I was not a happy man.
>
> I was even less happy about how much effort it was to switch
>the office assistant off....
Tore was saying he likes the paperclip itself, like X-eyes, you know?
He didn't even mention the broken functionality of "a help system with
the brains of a very stupid toaster" behind it, and I assumed that was
intentional.
You get it, now? <G>
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
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======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.networking
Subject: Re: VCD/DVD Player and Question about the cdrom
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:17:43 -0400
"Pig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8lsc33$j9k$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> There are 2 things I need help. Hope you can help me.
>
> Q1
> Could you suggest me a good VCD/DVD player in Linux?
>
> Q2
> When I mount the cdrom by a user account, the directory "/cdrom" still
> belongs to the "root".
> Is it normal?
Yes, this is the parent directory that the device is mounted under. It is
owned by root to prevent a user from erasing it.
It shouldn't make a difference as far as applications go, since the
directory should have execute permissions for world, to allow anyone
(including an application not running as root) to change into it.
>
> If "Yes", how the application "mtv" and "mtvp" (they are a kind of vcd
> player) can be used in a user account?
>
> If "No", how can I fix it?
Do an
ls -al /cdrom
if the permissions field doesn't have an "x" in the rightmost position, such
as "r-xr-xr-x" then do a
chmod +x /cdrom
from a root xterm.
Also, make sure that for a directory such as this, that there are NO "w"s in
the permissions field. You don't want anyone storing files there, especially
since a read-only device will be mounted there.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
--
Rich C.
"Because light travels faster than sound, many people appear to be
intelligent, until you hear them speak."
------------------------------
From: Arthur Frain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux can save you money on electricity!
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:46:19 -0700
2:1 wrote:
>
> abraxas wrote:
>
> > B'ichela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > As someone on this newsgroup said quite snidely. Linux can use
> > > the old style of computer equipment called terminals. I was thinking
> > > of this and the latest complaints noted by the National Electrical
> > > Reliability Council (NERC) in reguards to the electrical consumption
> > > of computers expecially in consumer applications. The Nerc reports
> > > point to the increasing demand for electrical power and the lack of
> > > new generating plants.
> > Theyre wrong to begin with, the average desktop machine uses as
> > much power as two lightbulbs. And you spelled 'especially' wrong,
> > you illiterate bastard.
Wrong assumption - power is not energy. Watts (for
lightbulbs or computers) measure power. Kilowatt-Hrs
measure energy. Using your numbers, you're apparently
assuming 120W for your computer and 60W per lightbulb.
The comparison for energy consumption depends on how
long each device operates. Six hours a day seems
reasonable for a single lightbulb, so assume a lightbulb
uses 6Hrs X 60W or .36KWh per day (residential, not
commercial).
Your computer uses .12KWh each hour it's on. If it's on
for 3 hours, it uses .36KWh, or the same as *one*
lightbulb. If it's on 24 hrs per day, it uses 2.88KWh,
or the same as *eight* lightbulbs.
The monitor consumption is more or less the same - in
the 120W range (probably higher, but close enough), so
the computer + plus monitor on for 3 hours is comparable
to 2 lightbulbs; over 24 hrs the computer + monitor will
consume as much energy as *16* lightbulbs.
That's why it largely makes sense to do some kind of
automatic power down for machines/monitors which are
left on but idle for extended periods, or left on
all of the time. That applies equally to consumer
or commercial use.
In addition, for periods when air conditioning is
on, the computer and monitor (and lightbulbs for that
matter) contribute to the heat load to be removed (ie
more energy consumption). In winter, the computer,
monitor, and lightbulbs are the same as electric heat
- not a very price competitive method of heating in
most parts of the country, but you do save some fuel.
> > > A terminal is not a major power sucker unlike a workstation. A
> > > terminal really draws squat! A Vt100 really only draws perhaps 85
> > > watts.
Vt100's are monochrome too. And they aren't X-terminals.
Same thing though - energy consumption depends on how
long it operates.
Arthur
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions
Subject: Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for.....
Date: 28 Jul 2000 18:06:19 -0500
In article <ZHgg5.16110$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
John Becich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I know nothing about Linux. I'm using Msft Word 2000, Excel, Quicken2000,
>etc., etc., under various Msft OSes. I'd like to know if I can get the job
>done under Linux.
>
>I've heard the most popular word processor under Linux is Corel Word
>Perfect. What happens if I'm exchanging email with a word processor
>attachment that originated under Word 2000? Can such a file be passed back
>and forth with full editability between a Linux/WP user and a Win2K/Word2K
>user?
>
>Ditto question about spreadsheet app. What spreadsheet would I use under
>Linux? Corel Quattro Pro for Linux? What version?
Staroffice is the closest thing you are likely to find to MS office.
The current 5.2 version claims to have pretty good file format
compatibility, and the code base is going to be released as
open source - see www.openoffice.org. You might also like
gnumeric as a spreadsheet.
>Then there's the all important bookkeeping. I like Quicken. Using
>Quicken2000 now, upgrade every year or two. What would I use under Linux?
>I haven't called Intuit to ask if it supports Linux. (I can sure expect
>that Microsoft doesn't make a Msft Money version for Linux!) What would I
>use for bookkeeping under Linux? Can I migrate my Quicken files?
There is the java moneydance and gnucash - probably not quite up
to quicken, but coming along.
>Ditto tax preparation. I use Turbo Tax. What would I use under Linux?
You might want to set your machine up to dual-boot so you can do
this once a year.
>Address book. I have an older version (5) of Parson's Address Book, which I
>love. (Didn't care for the upgrade at all!) There is a ton of work in my
>address book database. It can be exported in various file forms. What
>address book app should I use under Linux, and can I import a file from a
>Microsoft operating system?
Staroffice has one, or if you use Netscape for email you can use
theirs.
>Email. I use Outlook Express 5. I love POP3 email. Don't care for web
>mail at all. What would I use under Linux? Will my OE
>data migrate? (Not vital)
Staroffice again, or Netscape.
>Ditto internet surfering, browsing. What to use under Linux? Will my
>(extensive) favorite place collection migrate from Internet Explorer 5?
Netscape.
>Ditto newsgroups. I love my OE5 newsgroup reader. Don't care for web based
>access like Deja. What would I use under Linux? Will my data migrate from
>OE5?
Netscape (messenger, not navigator) - or others. I don't know if OE
has any way to export it's concept of the newsrc file or not.
>***************
>
>It is thus important for any new competing product to be able to co-exist
>with a de-facto standard product like Word 2000. It is important for any
>new competing product to support migration from de-facto standard products
>like MSWord, Quicken, Turbo Tax, etc.
>
>*********
For some sense of 'competing'. I'm not sure Linux competes in the
sense that anyone cares what else you might use.
>Closer to the OS....I have many files saved under Windows NT. Can I migrate
>them to a Linux platform, or must they remain behind?
Sure - it makes it easier if you have somewhere in common to store them
or can make a network connection to copy them over.
>Networking. Do most 100 Mbit Ethernet cards function, and function well,
>under Linux? I presume the hubs would work, as that functionality is quite
>removed from any operating system.
Yes, there are drivers for almost all, although (just like for windows)
for some you have to pick up the latest version of the driver and
install. However, if you have a network, perhaps that means you
have more than one machine, in which case you can still run your
old software on another box when needed and can share and copy files
over the net.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:09:37 -0700
From: Chem-R-Us <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions
Subject: Re: Can Linux get the job done? Are there Linux apps for.....
Aaron Ginn wrote:
>
> "John Becich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I know nothing about Linux. I'm using Msft Word 2000, Excel, Quicken2000,
> > etc., etc., under various Msft OSes. I'd like to know if I can get the job
> > done under Linux.
> >
> > I've heard the most popular word processor under Linux is Corel Word
> > Perfect. What happens if I'm exchanging email with a word processor
> > attachment that originated under Word 2000? Can such a file be passed back
> > and forth with full editability between a Linux/WP user and a Win2K/Word2K
> > user?
>
> I'd say the most popular office suite is Star Office from Sun. I
> don't use office suites at all so I can't say how well it groks MS
> Office.
http://www.sun.com/staroffice. It will read and write MSword formats
(and WP too I think).
--
Chem-R-Us
------------------------------
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