Linux-Advocacy Digest #789, Volume #26 Wed, 31 May 00 16:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day (tinman)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (josco)
Re: The Linux Fortress (Pete Goodwin)
Re: The Linux Fortress (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Bill Gates Famous saying! (WesTralia)
Re: The Linux Fortress (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: I wish I could replace Windows with Linux..... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: What the hell is Linux? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Stuff you cant do with windows (abraxas)
Re: I wish I could replace Windows with Linux.....
Bob's Law (Bob Lyday)
Re: The Linux Fortress (Pete Goodwin)
Re: The Linux Fortress (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Bob's Law (EdWIN)
Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (Julius Apweiler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:35:25 -0400
[groups snipped]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nathaniel Jay Lee
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I ask, do I need to continue to treat this type of person with respect.
> I don't feel he deserves respect, and as it seems to look like a good
> possibility that I will end up losing my job over this (install windows,
> or lose my job, which would you do?). And the reasoning behind why I
> can't keep Linux on the network: not because Linux has failed us, not
> because Linux isn't ready for use, not because anyone has an actual
> complaint against any of the software we have used, but because we
> brought in someone new that is supposed to be a salesman that decided he
> had to have Windows to survive. And when asked why he has to have
> Windows, his sound mind comes up with this: "We have to have Windows
> because that's what everyone else uses." Period. Not a very good
> reason in my mind. But I have decided that if the bosses actually fall
> for this I probably don't really want to work here after all. Why would
> I want to work for a company where everyone would throw themselves off a
> cliff if "everyone else" did?
Well, while I appreciate your frustration, but IMO you do need to continue
to treat this yutz with respect--that is part of your job as a support
person. Of course, if you're ever not happy in a job, considering your
options is a good thing to do--there's lots of work out there....('
Main thing to remember is it's just a job....
Now, obviously this is a problem and needs resolution. Seems to me you
have a few options:
*You probably need to treat him as a VIP. Ironically, this is generally
the best way to deal with a pesky client, not because it makes them happy
(usually it doesn't), but because it establishes your desire to maintain a
high level of professionalism in dealing with a client who is using up a
lot of your time. The one thing you don't want to do is complain about him
up the chain--it's your job to support clients, and complaining about them
generally reflects much more badly on you than on them. If he's really a
pain, and you're acting like a prince, it's most likely folks will catch
on (so far, I've never had a troublesome client that wasn't troublesome in
general, and didn't have that rep throughout). You should also document
your interactions with him, email is very good for this, and include all
the email in the trouble tickets (so that if there is a need to review how
a particular problem was handled, it's all there). If your bosses want you
to support him on windows, and you don't have the chops, get them to get
you some training. What you really need to establish is that you've done
everything in your power to accomodate this client.
*Keep good records at to what you do for him and how much time all of that
takes. A good problem tracking system is an excellent way to do this (if
you want to jaw about this outside this group, feel free to mail me, this
is a pet area of mine--I'll be off line shortly for a few days, but will
catch up with you). If he really is a drain on resources, good records
will help you establish this as fact. The goal here is to show with good
data what it costs the company to accomodate this client.
*Once you've got good records on how many resources he takes up, you've
got some ammunition to discuss options. One would be to hire an additional
full or part time person to handle windows support (and thus get it out of
your hair). Another would be to send him off for training so he's more
self supporting. A third, best if you're going have to support him and
want to stay on, is to suggest that the company adopt a standard limited
support model for alternate OSes. For windows, that means you getting
training, locking him down with Win2K or NT so that he's limited in what
he can install or change about the system (there is lots of data out there
you can use to justify this, most corps use a standard install on standard
hardware to reduce complexity and thus support costs), establishing a base
install (that's restored when the machine goes wonky, so you don't have to
spend extra time figuring out what went wrong), and making some
adjustments in your server structure (you could use SAMBA, for example, to
get him access to the linux server space so he can make backups, and you
mentioned a mac guy, if you're running AFP, you could install an
appleshare client on his machine).
*The records thing is especially important if you think he might be able
to convice higher ups that you all need to convert. If you have a well
running system with linux as the core OS, and you can show that this one
user is taking up a higher percentage of resources than other users,
especially broken down into specific areas, well, you get the idea. But
this will only work if you have a track record showing you always act in a
professional manner, and if you have demonstrated that you know the issues
involved in both linux and windows (if you haven't, most folks will assume
that you're just complaining and resisting because you don't like windows,
or are lazy, or (my fav) you're not a "team player").
> As for the respect I have gotten from him. Here's his first statement
> when he saw the system for the first time (this was at the login screen,
> not even loggin in), "This is just a piece of shit. I can't use this."
> After loggin in, before getting his first training session, his
> statement was, "This is a bunch of shit, I need Windows." After his
> first training session, his statement was, "How the fuck do you use this
> bunch of shit. I can't believe you actually think a company can survive
> without Windows. Give me Windows, or I can't get my work done."
> Obviously a very open minded individual with an astute understanding of
> computers.
Hopefully, you weren't the only person to hear all of this. If you were,
get more folks involved....
[snip]
--
______
tinman
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:48:18 -0500
Illya Vaes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> rj friedman wrote:
> >¯I sure don't need to read more messages from you in order to determine
> >¯whether or not you're an MS Weenie, like so many that come from the
> >¯woodwork any time MS is under siege (because of their own behaviour).
> >Hmmm... looking at the name that this individual is posting
> >under makes me most suspicious that this is one of those
> >trolls from the MS 'dirty tricks' department. Going back to
> >the original "Steve Bartko" persona, they seem to gravitate
> >to using these phony "ethnic sounding" cover names to post
> >under. E.g., the "Demetrio Lamazaki" persona, and the "Erik
> >Funkenbush" persona are the more recent ones.
>
> There's nothing 'recent' about "Erik Funkenbusch".
> And I recently saw a boatload of "NT is a server-type OS" 'Lucien' posts
again
> too, BTW.
I've been on usenet since at *LEAST* 1992. I was connecting via my Amiga
and UUCP. In fact, here's my UUCP map entry which I still have not figured
out a way to delete:
http://www.uucp.org/cgi-bin/rbox/map?entry/09929559
The ironic thing is, "Friedman" is just as "ethnic" as my name.
------------------------------
From: josco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:47:58 -0700
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > > C++ can never be faster than C, since C++ is defined in terms of C (it
> has
> > > to be translateable to C for C front ends.
> >
> > Wrong. C++ isn't restricted to be implemented in C. Just as a Java
> > application can often be faster than an equal C++ program so can C++ be
> > faster than an equal C program.
>
> That's highly dishonest Joseph. You deliberatly cut out the portion of my
> message which stated that most compilers today aren't translated to C.
>
> The point is that the language has to be translateable to C, that doesn't
> mean it has to be translated.
You're making a irrelevant comment. LISP can be translated to C.
The fact C++ can be translated into C does not impact the speed of C++.
> > And you cannot talk about C++ without mentioning its benfits over C.
> > Engineering OO benefits in C is less efficient, not using OO benefits is
> > playing cards without a full deck. Windows 2000 didn't get to be 30+
> > million plus lines of code in ASM and C Junior.
>
> This is entirely contradictory. Your argument is that C++ makes coding
> easier, and thus requires fewer lines. Then you argue that Windows 2000
> wouldn't be as large as it is if it was C. Windows 2000 would be *FEWER*
> lines if it were written in C++, not the other way around.
Maybe I'm writing to an idiot.
A framework, say MFC, reduces the coding a programmer does but the
framework automatically generates code. So a C++ programing MS's tools
can be concise to the developer but produce thousands of lines of code.
Same hold for C and ASM. C is more concise and fewer C lines produce more
more machine code than a asm program would produce, line by line.
Beyond simple metircs like lines of code, there are features C++ offers
that reduce errors but are more coslty in terms of resources - costs well
worth paying.
With Windows2000, the use of C++ reduces the coding effort by a human.
The resultant code base can be larger but is more maintainable -- the
tradeoff is you require resources for a more reliable and less costly to
produce OS. And no I didn't say Windows2000 uses MFC.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The Linux Fortress
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:53:56 GMT
hauck[at]codem{dot}com (Bob Hauck) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Read what I wrote. It is easy to make shares with no password.
Yes but you consciously have to do that, just like entering no password in
Linux. That's the same kind of hole.
>Lots of them. As I said, read BugTraq. The URL for the archive is:
>http://www.securityfocus.com. Click on the Microsoft tab. There's a
>list. Below are some recent ones. It does look like IE exploits are down
>this year as compared to last, but how many people still have the older
>versions? And third-party software on Win9x seems to have just as many
>problems as Microsoft's software. Many of these vulnerabilities allow an
>attacker to run code of his choosing on the attacked system, which means
>he can install any software he wants.
I'll take a look - you mention IE which I avoid using. I'll have to see
what holes exist on a system that doesn't use IE or Outlook.
>In short, Windows has plenty of security problems even though it does not
>provide many network services. To be sure, Linux has security holes too,
>most everything does, but your contention that Win9x is "safer" because of
>it's nature as a single user desktop is not well supported by the facts.
A single user desktop unconnected to the network was what I thought I was
referring to. Any system is safe in that context. A single user workstation
connected to the network not using IE or Outlook I still believe has no
holes.
Pete
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The Linux Fortress
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:55:20 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina) wrote in <8h31nc$4tt$1
@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>And the default is? And the options are?
Regrettably the default is 'everyone' and 'full control' 8{
The options are per user, everyone, 'full', 'change' and 'read', deny and
allow. They're better than Windows 9x.
Pete
------------------------------
From: WesTralia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates Famous saying!
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:48:13 -0500
Charlie Ebert wrote:
>
> "640 K is enough for anyone!"
>
> Charlie
"The future of computing is with multimedia on the CD-ROM..."
- (circa 1995) Bill Gates with George Lucas on a televised announcment
about their future partnership. This of course was at the time the
WWW was reving up its engine. The visionary never saw it coming.
-wt
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The Linux Fortress
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:58:23 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )) wrote in <8h3bee$c5c$1
@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>If you are using a Cable modem or shared DSL, you need more security.
>Otherwise, all shares become public to anyone on your loop. The
>same is true for laptop users sharing ethernet strings in hotels.
Cable modems or shared DSL still aren't here in the UK as yet.
>At work, your system is configured by an administrator. If you
>use Windows 98, you still punch a huge security hole in the network,
>but it takes a melissa/bubbleboy/love-bug style virus to exploit it.
Not where I work. In fact, nowhere has anyone configured a machine for me.
>Have you ever used regedit to resolve any configuration problems?
Yes. Piece of piss.
Pete
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 31 May 2000 13:53:50 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Yarick Rastrigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Certainly. Just rebuild the db at 3am when the system is idle
>> and the end user is asleep...
>I for myself always hate this behavior. It's not uncommon in our company
>to work through
>the night, and updatedb slowing things down usually in the middle of
>hard debugging session
>pisses me off. And when it runs throuhg network mounts with 20 to 100
>Gb's SMB-mounted disks
>all across our local network - it's waay too long to complete, so it's
>better to
>killall find.
Updatedb should be configured to ignore network mounts by default.
Not all distributions/versions got that right.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: I wish I could replace Windows with Linux.....
Date: 31 May 2000 13:50:53 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
barbiellini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Isn't there a proggy now that lets u run windoze software on top
>of you linux install? Anyone had it running? Reports etc?
>Cheers.
There is the free WINE project that runs some windows programs directly
under Linux:
http://www.winehq.com/
and the commercial VMWare that runs a virtual machine complete with
your copy of it's operating system:
http://www.vmware.com
Wine is improving with age, but doesn't run everything well yet.
VMWare is pretty amazing, but since it requires a copy of
windows, it brings along all the problems.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Subject: Re: What the hell is Linux?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:01:34 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) wrote in
<8h33m0$2tu0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>What??? You can't 'cut' something out of a scrolling command
>line screen or a program that is not X-aware, but you can copy
>and paste just about anything just about anywhere. Perhaps
>it is so easy you didn't notice it: left-click/drag to
>highlight which has the side effect of copying, middle mouse
>to paste. Snarf-n-barf... The only quirk compared to MS
>style is that you can't highlight a 2nd selection to
>replace with the pasted element. All of the KDE programs that
>have any edit functions should allow you to 'cut' a selection
>too.
I'll try that now that I know that's there. But, er, the menu on a KDE
terminal does not list Edit | Copy, Paste, so naturally 8) I assumed that
function wasn't there!
>There is a point where command line operations have their
>virtues compared to visual ones. Do you really intend to
>read all those filenames anyway?
No, but this is a common feature of GUI's in general. How do you display a
large number of items, the answer is, you don't. Windows does this, KDE
does not.
Pete
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Stuff you cant do with windows
Date: 31 May 2000 19:10:03 GMT
Jorge Cueto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> A 4,000 node linux cluster:
> Childhood behaviour, childhood answer : GNU/Linux can't use
> my ASUS Riva TNT2 Ultra card at its full power, does this mean
> anything ? No, just like your comment :-)
Wow, works fine with my Riva TNT2 card. I even have 3D
acceleration and everything. You must be doing something wrong.
>> Whats that about datacenter again?
> It is beta2 now, where is that 2.4 again with good USB, SMP,
> and the rest of bells ? It is still beta. Again both mean nothing.
And just what exactly is it supposed to support again?
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: I wish I could replace Windows with Linux.....
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:13:10 GMT
On 31 May 2000 13:50:53 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Wine is improving with age, but doesn't run everything well yet.
>VMWare is pretty amazing, but since it requires a copy of
>windows, it brings along all the problems.
One nice feature of vmware is that you can set it so that disk writes
aren't automatically 'commited'. That helps solve problems where windoze
corrupts itself.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:10:25 -0700
From: Bob Lyday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Bob's Law
EdWIN wrote:
>
> >> > > >>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
Bob's Law invoked. Tholen mentioned. Thread is now officially dead.
--
Bob
"Earth hath no sorrows that Earth cannot heal." John Muir
Remove ".diespammersdie" to reply.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: The Linux Fortress
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:19:42 GMT
hauck[at]codem{dot}com (Bob Hauck) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Lots of them. As I said, read BugTraq. The URL for the archive is:
>http://www.securityfocus.com. Click on the Microsoft tab. There's a
>list. Below are some recent ones. It does look like IE exploits are down
>this year as compared to last, but how many people still have the older
>versions? And third-party software on Win9x seems to have just as many
>problems as Microsoft's software. Many of these vulnerabilities allow an
>attacker to run code of his choosing on the attacked system, which means
>he can install any software he wants.
I had a look at http://www.securityfocus.com. There are a long list of
vulnerabilities in Microsoft's code. A close look revealed most of them
aren't in Windows itself but applications.
Another look revealed another long list of vulnerabilities - this time in
Linux!
Pete
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: The Linux Fortress
Date: 31 May 2000 14:14:18 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And that's my point. Everything is done to make it easier for the developer
>but not the user.
>
>>The How-To's are primarily intended for people who are intent
>>on accomplishing a specific goal, that isn't generally available
>>from tools like Linuxconf or netconfig. Historically, the function
>>is implemented first, brought to a stable state, and then graphical
>>interfaces are added once the system is relatively stable. It
>>makes the whole process much simpler.
>
>I went looking through the samda documentation on how to use smbfs. There
>is very little about it, so it's unusable as far as I can see.
Mandrake again? Browse to
file:/usr/doc/samba-2.0.6/docs/htmldocs/smbmount.8.html.
Basically, as root you:
smbmount //pcname/sharename /mountpoint
with an assortment of options to specify the username, password,
unix owner, etc.
They do seem to have omitted the man page translation of
this document, but locate finds these things instantly.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bob's Law
From: EdWIN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:22:43 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bob
Lyday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>EdWIN wrote:
>>
>> >> > > >>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
>
>
>Bob's Law invoked.
Irrelevant.
Tholen mentioned.
What Tholen mentioned is irrelevant, what you can prove is
relevant.
>Thread is now officially dead.
Prove it, if you think you can.
>--
>Bob
>"Earth hath no sorrows that Earth cannot heal." John Muir
>Remove ".diespammersdie" to reply.
Typical pontification. No surprise there.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:37:34 +0200
Christopher Browne wrote:
[snip]
>
> Giuliano's grammar is a bit painful, but if English is a second (or even
> third!) language, that's pretty excusable.
Why, there is such a thing as an English Grammar?
--
Ing. Giuliano Colla
Direttore Tecnico
Copeca srl
Via del Fonditore 3/E
Bologna (Zona Industriale Roveri)
Tel. 051 53.46.92 - 0335 610.43.35
Fax 051 53.49.89
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:14:06 +0200
From: Julius Apweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
John Culleton wrote:
>
> Long thread, and I hate to make it longer, but____ Linux is an
> operating system for a conventional computer. It is in many ways
> an old fashioned operating system, based on principles laid down
> by Ken Thompson et. al. in the late 60's and early 70's. Now
> technology is a funny thing. Sometimes it advances and sometimes
> it doesn't. If you showed a hunting rifle to a man from a century
> ago he would understand what it was and how it works. If you
> showed your pickup truck to someone from the 1920's they would
> understand what is was for, how it worked and could name its
> principal components. but if you showed your personal computer to
> a person from the 1950's he/she would be totally amazed.
> The computer industry froze its basic hardware and software
> design early on. While we have amazing increases in
> price/performance we still have a cpu, peripherals, main memory,
> auxiliary memory and so on. As long as this fundamental paradigm
> prevails there is room for an os built around it. But if
> computers become analog, or integrated in some special way with a
Now, my comment isn't really qualified, but I don't think that's likely
to happen. What do you have in mind for a completely new computer?
Analogue computers don't exist as such because analogue signals are too
inaccurate (AFAIK), and conventional machines do have analogue
components such as sound cards and monitors, or scanners, digital
cameras, joysticks...
It's like with cars - the original principle, pistons in cylinders (is
that correct? I'm not sure about the English expressions), is still used
today. And there are alternatives, like the Wankel motor, but they're
not widely used. I'm just talking about petrol-driven cars, of course,
electric ones are a different matter.
And about communications tools - what exactly do you mean? Things like
mobile phones, WAP and so on? I don't mean to say you're wrong, I'm just
wondering.
> generalized communications tool, or whatever then Linux, (and
> Windows, Unix MVS etc.) will disappear because they are no longer
> relevant. Linux has something strong going for it -- the
> enthusiasts like me and thee who foster it, use it and sometimes
> improve it. Even Microsoft and IBM can't afford the "staff" that
> supports Linux and answers questions about it. But if it falls
> behind the mainstram of technology it will decline into an
> interesting hobby, like Amateur radio. (Yep, I am one of those
> too, OM.)
I'd find that interesting, too, but I don't know how to get started.
Probably wouldn't have the time anyway, though.
> John Culleton
====================
Julius Dominik Apweiler
----
Owner of Julius' Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/jule-apweiler/ ,
----
Inventor of the Creatures Christmas Calendar:
http://www.geocities.com/jule-apweiler/calendar
----
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----
ICQ: 21129422 , no authorization required.
----
Sent from SuSE Linux 6.3
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and
Gates?"
------------------------------
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