Linux-Advocacy Digest #198, Volume #27 Mon, 19 Jun 00 23:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
("Christopher Smith")
Re: [Fwd: Newsweek US Edition: Microsoft's Six Fatal Errors] (Leslie Mikesell)
Linux Was Already On The Desktops In 10% Of Companies One Year Ago! (Mark S. Bilk)
Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes (Craig Kelley)
Re: What UNIX is good for. (Ray Chason)
Re: What UNIX is good for. (Ray Chason)
Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes (Craig Kelley)
Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes (Jason McNorton)
Re: Can Linux do this? KIOSKS - Lite Linux desktop? Lock-down configs? (Craig
Kelley)
Re: Why X is better than Terminal Server (Craig Kelley)
Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about. ("Colin R. Day")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:41:47 +1000
"Leslie Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8imk68$1sp3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <8im5dh$rsv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> >Ohh, I'm talking Real Servers here, able to be operated headless (a
> >> >feature MS seems to have discovered recently :-), remotely and stuff.
> >>
> >> Does that mean there is some version of windows now that
> >> will find it's mouse without rebooting if you happen to have
> >> had the console switch directed elsewhere as it comes up
> >> (or any other reason it wasn't seen at boot-up)? I know - I
> >> should just buy the expensive KVMs that fake the mouse
> >> for windows when the switch is in a different position, but...
> >
> >NT has always been able to do it. Win9x should be able to with any USB
> >mouse, and you shouldn't be plugging PS/2 mice in with the machine
powered
> >on.
>
> How do you make it see the mouse after it is switched to the
> box? I've never been able to do it, although all of my
> NT servers have VNC started as a service so I can connect over
> the net and use the mouse from there.
Go to Control Panel -> Devices and you should be able to manually start the
mouse driver.
> And I never had trouble with Linux boxes when plugging in a mouse
> and/or keyboard after boot-up.
Oh, it works, but you shouldn't do it because you can blow the keyboard
controller chip. PS/2 ain't designed for hotplugging.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Newsweek US Edition: Microsoft's Six Fatal Errors]
Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:30:47 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OSguy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OSguy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >http://www.msnbc.com/m/nw/editors_note.asp
>> >
>> >abraxas wrote:
>> >
>> >> > What's going on here?
>> >>
>> >> Microsoft is trying to fool you, and theyve drastically underestimated your
>> >> intelligence and computer experience. I.e.; theyve assumed that you're
>> >> one of their customers.
>>
>> Wow - that's bizarre. The pages claim to be Newsweek's but the
>> navigation menus on the left where you expect them belong to
>> MSN. You have to hunt to find the Neweek content.
>>
>
>C'mon Guys....Can't you read?
>
>It says in the Editor's notes:
>
>"We're pleased to welcome you to Newsweek.MSNBC.com, the new home of Newsweek
>magazine on the Web."
>
>As in Newsweek online has moved their pages/services to MSNBC.
>
>I apologize if I missed something other than Newsweek being a sellout, but I
>don't think so.
After reading the fine print, it begins to make sense, but still
if you go to the link where http://www.newsweek.com is redirected
you find msn's navigation menu on the left where you expect
navigation, so it is easy to mistakenly view the msn content when you
expect unbiased Newsweek content. It fooled me, and I've seen
web sites before.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Linux Was Already On The Desktops In 10% Of Companies One Year Ago!
Date: 20 Jun 2000 02:46:29 GMT
By going to this web page, and clicking on the free data
link, one can access various industry surveys taken as late
as one year ago -- 2Q99 (more recent ones cost a dollar a
minute to access):
http://www.infotechtrends.com/freedemo.htm
Thanks to WhyteWolf for posting this one, which you get by
checking the "web" box:
99Q2 - Percent of Web servers using each operating system.
Percent of Web servers using each operating system.
Windows NT 26%
Linux 21%
Solaris 16%
BSDI 11%
SGI (IRIX) 9%
Free BSD 8%
JOURNAL/SOURCE/TITLE DATE PAGE
VARBUSINESS/ 12-Apr-99 58 Netcraft/
*GENERATION LINUX - NIPPING NT's HEELS
So, Linux had almost caught up to Windows NT in web server
market share a year ago, and the most popular Unix systems
combined exceeded NT's share by 2.5 to 1 (.65/.26).
But if you instead check the boxes for "software" and
"systems", you can get this report:
99Q2 - Percent of information technology managers using
or planning to use Linux as a general purpose desktop
or workstation operating system.
Currently Use 10%
Use Within 12 Months 20%
No Plans 68%
Don't Know 1%
JOURNAL/SOURCE/TITLE DATE PAGE
VARBUSINESS/ 12-Apr-99 54 InformationWeek/
*GENERATION LINUX - NEXT STOP: DESKTOP
One year ago, when KDE and Gnome, along with hardware and
installation support, were much less developed than they
are now, Linux was already in use on the desktop/workstation
computers of 10% of all businesses. The figure may now
be 30%, if the managers planning to switch to Linux have
followed through.
GNU/Linux/OSS is not only growing in market share, it is so
much fun to use and to develop software for that many thou-
sands of people are working to improve the operating system
and the applications, and to add new apps. There are hundreds
of such projects with teams of people working on them. Almost
all are independent of any corporation and are under the GPL,
so as long as *anyone* is interested in them, the work will
continue.
For those who want to use various MS-Windows software, some
of which is not yet ported or functionally duplicated for
Linux, there are three systems that will allow Linux to run
some of it -- Wine (free), VMware ($99 for personal use),
and Trelos Win4Lin ($49, like VMware with easier file access
but no sound support). These three systems are constantly
being improved.
The next LinuxWorld Conference and Expo is August 14-17 in
San Jose, Calif. The last one was huge! Meet Linus and RMS.
Pet a real penguin! Register now to get in to the exhibits
(Aug. 15-17) for free ($25 at the door).
http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/
Life is good!
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:47:20 -0600
"Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > So you can partition a floppy disk under MacOS ?
> >
> > You can under Linux:
> >
> > Command (m for help): p
> >
> > Disk /dev/fd0: 2 heads, 18 sectors, 80 cylinders
> > Units = cylinders of 36 * 512 bytes
> >
> > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
> > /dev/fd0p1 1 40 711 b Win95 FAT32
> > /dev/fd0p2 41 80 720 83 Linux
> >
> > Not that you'd ever want to. :)
>
> I actually tried this on my Linux box before I posted, and while it would
> create the partitions I couldn't get it to format any of them.
You'd have to create the device nodes in /dev (unless you're using the
uber-cool devfs in 2.3).
> Also, despite writing the new "partition table" to the floppy (with a
> half-dozen partitions on it), Windows still seemed to be able to read what
> *used* to be on it.
>
> Ideas ?
I belive that DOS and NT both have pretty much hard-coded floppy drive
stuff. They are treated differently than any other block device (no
need to mount them). AFAIK, floppies typically don't have partition
tables -- so Windows probably doesn't read them (and neither will
linux if you access /dev/fd0 directly, just like accessing /dev/sda
directly without partitions).
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: What UNIX is good for.
Date: 20 Jun 2000 01:47:31 GMT
Ciaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Emacs is the editor that God would use.
That depends on whether your particular God is into masochism.
(Flames from fundies will go to /dev/null, go directly to /dev/null, do not
pass Go, do not collect 200 zorkmids. This thread is stricly for Emacs vs.
vi(m) holy wars.)
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: What UNIX is good for.
Date: 20 Jun 2000 01:49:36 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus) wrote:
>Vim is what we got when vi finally caught up with Emacs.
Fortunately vim never sprouted the "All Hope Abandon, Ye Who Enter Here"
key that I always seem to strike when I try to use Emacs.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:51:57 -0600
"Shock Boy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8ijdec$trh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > > > "Sam Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:ABJ25.3969$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > My real question is why do we Windows users have to put up with the
> > old,
> > > > > outdated, kludgey and quite honestly crap system of identifying
> > volumes by
> > > > > drive letter that Windows STILL uses? Legacy apps be damned, the
> > longer
> > > > it's
> > > > > left the way it is, the harder it will be to switch to a vaguely more
> > > > modern
> > > > > system.
> > > >
> > > > Because when you move up to NT or Win2k and can set the drive letters
> > > > yourself, it becomes just like the Mac system, albeit with only one
> > letter
> > > > volume names.
> > >
> > > I dare you to change the drive that your system root resides on to a
> > > different letter.
> >
> > What do I win if it works ? :D
>
> Yea.. mine is not on C:\ as well :-)
Of course you can *install* it on any letter, but *moving* it after
the fact is a different story.
I use NT on a regular basis, and anyone else who does has probably
experienced the letter-shuffle that goes on with new devices and
partitions. I discovered this joy when I formatted an 8MB partition
that NT left at the beginning of the primary IDE drive (why does
NTSETUP do that when you tell it to use all the space anyway?); it
became C: and the rest is history.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes
Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:53:53 -0500
In article <hVy35.3352$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Shock Boy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > > Because when you move up to NT or Win2k and can set the drive letters
>> > > yourself, it becomes just like the Mac system, albeit with only one
>> letter
>> > > volume names.
>> >
>> > I dare you to change the drive that your system root resides on to a
>> > different letter.
>>
>> What do I win if it works ? :D
>
>Yea.. mine is not on C:\ as well :-)
Of course you can install it on a different drive. What happens
when you move it after the system and apps are installed?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Jason McNorton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:59:15 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason McNorton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> > > I'm just starting up a new PC and having fun with more of the Windows
> > > garbage....
> > >
> > > Celeron 566
> > > Abit BE6-II
> > > 192 MB PC 100 RAM
> > > Voodoo3 video
> > > Creative Labs Soundblaster 128
> > > And so on.
> > >
> > > Here's where it gets interesting. I installed everything in a new case
> > > and everything seems to work OK. When I use my old drive (which has
> > > Win98 on it), it starts and everything's OK. But now, I install a new
> > > DMA-66 drive. Here's where it gets fun.
> > >
> > > I didn't install a floppy drive. I figure--who needs one nowadays, but
> > > I
> > > did order an LS-120 drive. Unfortunately, it's not here yet. No
> > > problem,
> > > you can boot from a Windows CD, right?
> > >
> > > I set the BIOS to boot from CD.
> > >
> > > Install Win2K CD. Boot. It boots OK from the CD (other than the
> > > silliness of asking me if I really want to boot from a CD). Win2K
> > > loads,
> > > and asks if I want to install. I hit 'enter'.
> > >
> > > Oops. Win2K won't recognize a DMA66 drive.
> > >
> > > Oh, well. I'll try Windows Millenium (latest beta). Go through the same
> > > process.
> > >
> > > Oops. Boot failure. Apparently, you can't boot from the Millenium CD.
> > >
> > > So much for ease of use......
> >
> > This is probably a result of you getting a lot of half-working used junk
> > off ebay.
> >
>
> Really? Is that your attempt at a rational argument?
>
> Which of the items above are junk?
>
> Since all the hardware worked, you must be referring to Windows as junk.
> That's one of the first things you've ever said that I wouldn't disagree
> with.
>
> (None of them came from eBay, anyway).
Then you bought this Voodoo3 for grins?
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346422363
And all the other junk you recently got off ebay..
And you expect ANYONE here to believe your sob stories about how Windows
never works for you?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: alt.comp.linux,comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Can Linux do this? KIOSKS - Lite Linux desktop? Lock-down configs?
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:00:37 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:03 +0200, Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >It was the 19 Jun 2000 06:02:43 -0500...
> >...and Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >- Simple web browser with low memory requirements; must be easy to use for
> >> >people familiar with IE and Netscape.
> >>
> >> You can iether use Netscape, which requiars more RAM and a faster CPU, or you can
>use AREENA,
> >> which isnt' finnished and probably never will be.
> >
> >Arena is obsolete anyway, it has been replaced by Amaya, but when I
> >need a lightweight browser, I use w3m anyway.
>
> Also keep in mind that all a kiosk web browser on Linux would
> need run is the browser itself and X. You don't need to load
> a window manager or the rest of the desktop that would necesarily
> be running under Windows or MacOS.
Until the user selects File->New Window
[snip]
It would probably be best to run fvwm95, or another EXPLORE.EXE clone
(theme), so as not to confuse the users.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why X is better than Terminal Server
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:01:22 -0600
Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:07 +0100, 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >> The UI IS the OS for desktop users. Command line or GUI, it doesn't
> >> matter. An ugly mess of a UI makes the OS an ugly mess to use. Sums up
> >> Linux as a consumer grade OS almost perfectly.
> >
> >Simple. If you don't like KDE use something else. The chioce is yours,
> >no on is forcing KDE on to you...
>
> The sad part is... KDE is the best window manger for Linux.
Except that KDE isn't a window manager.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:07:29 -0400
Tim Palmer wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:22:45 -0400, Colin R. Day <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >Should a family of four have four different computers? Hmm. Would they
> >all need separate printers? Separate phone lines?
>
> One computer. No accounts. No 'administrative idneities".
>
No protection from your thirteen-year-old son who is plotting revenge
for your refusal to allow him to get his navel pierced.
> >>
> >
> >[root@localhost /]# cd /etc
> >[root@localhost /etc] emacs inittab
> >
> >change id:3:initdefault: to id:5:initdefault: and then save and exit.
>
> All that text edditign and it still doesn't get rid of the multiuser.
>
I thought you meant getting rid of the CLI, sorry, that's what I get for overestimating
you. I couldn't believe that you were so clueless as to disparage the multiuser
capabilities of UNIX/Linux, but I was wrong.
And changing one character is "All that text edditign"?
>
> >
> >This is analogous to setting BootGUI=1 in Windows. And unlike Windows, where
> >a user could boot into DOS, a user can not override this.
> >
> >Also, CLI in Linux is far more useful than DOS. Do any browsers work in DOS?
>
> The browser is for Windows. There isn't even a point in making a browser for DOS.
>The goal of
> Windows is so you don't half to use DOS.
>
The goal of Linux is so that you don't have to use Windows. Also, if you need
to download a video driver because you upgraded your OS and the old drivers
no longer work, it would be helpful if you could download them from the console.
> >>
> >> Another faeture that nobody ever uses. This doesn't make "X" Windows more usefull
>to most
> >> users. Windows still wins.
> >>
> >
> >How would Windows win? At worst it would be a draw.
>
> Windows is on more than 90% of computers, and peopal arnt going to switch just
>because "X"
> Windows works over a network and MS Windows needs PCANYWHERE.
>
But for this feature, Linux has it, and Windows doesn't (out of the box, anyway).
> >> 7. It gives you "choice"
> >>
> >> ...betwean one crappy program and 50 others just like it. Most people's "choice"
>is MS Windows
> >
> >Choice? Then why does Microsoft resort to cliff-tiered pricing?
>
> What cliff-tiered pricing?
>
It's how Microsoft charges OEM's for Windows licenses. Tends to discourage
OEM's from offering other OSes.
> >> and the fine MS software that goes together with it. They would never give up all
>that just to
> >> run Linux and its shitty little beta-test apps
> >
> >WordPerfect 2000 is hardly a beta-test app. And at least beta-test apps are
>labelled as
> >such in Linux.
>
> In Windos, if the softwhere is beta, you won't see it on the market.
>
Right.
>
> See? Even UNIX users are confuesed by UNIX. This is the VI "shlel", which is reely
>an edditer
> but you still half to type commands just like a shell.
>
Hey, I haven't used vi in eight years. I use Emacs.
Colin Day
------------------------------
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