Linux-Advocacy Digest #421, Volume #27 Sun, 2 Jul 00 01:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: How fast is your text? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner? (Gary Hallock)
Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use? ("Rich C")
Re: Linux code going down hill (David M. Cook)
Re: Linux code going down hill (David M. Cook)
Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft (Steve Mading)
Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft (Steve Mading)
Re: Trying Linux yet again.... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Perry Pip)
Re: Where did all my windows go? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this! (Steve Mading)
Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use? (Perry Pip)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: How fast is your text?
Date: 1 Jul 2000 22:05:45 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:10:55 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>I'm sure everyone knows this already, but here's Yet Another
>>Contrived BenchMark That Shows Linux Is Faster Than Windows. :-)
>>
>
>It show's what we alreddy kno: UNIX is good at shuffalling text but not good at
>annything else.
>
It only shows the good part... You seem to be the only one who
has the problem with other things.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner?
Date: 1 Jul 2000 22:08:14 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Well to start out, Linux is here now, MacOS X is still around the
>>conner. To get to the main point; Linux is the best OS I've ever used as
>>far a stability goes. Turn on my Windows 98 machine and the more I use
>>it the slower it gets, and crashes.
>
>Why is it that all you LIE-nux nuts alwase clame that Windo's crashes all the time
>when its not trew?
>
Maybe they are the only ones who have tried to do any real work
with it. And given up, which is why they now use Linux.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:18:31 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner?
Tim Palmer wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:59:46 GMT, James Stafford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Downloading files with my Linux box
> >is about 66% faster.
>
> PPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT. What a nice, rownd number. How long it took you to make
>it up?
>
Actually, that number is very believable. The best I have ever gotten on Windows is
a connection speed
of 28.8K and 2.5KB/sec data transfer rate. On Linux I get a connection speed of
42.3 quite regularly
and a data transfer rate of 4KB/sec. And that's with the same winmodem on both.
Gary
------------------------------
From: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use?
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:27:38 -0400
"Leslie Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8jmav2$2pkq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rich C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> >> Have you found something where the usual
> >> left-mouse select = snarf
> >> middle-mouse = barf
> >> doesn't work?
> >
> >IMO, this strategy is flawed, as I discovered while playing with it.
While
> >it does work across all the apps I've tried it with, I had a problem when
I
> >wanted to _replace_ a text selection with my "snarfed" text. I had to go
to
> >the target, delete it, then go back to my source and select the text,
then
> >go back to the target and middle-click. While it may be universal, I'd
> >rather learn all the more convenient variants, even though there's more
to
> >remember.
>
> The only place this is a real problem is when you are in a
> form with a fixed-size input buffer. Otherwise you just paste
> the replacement before deleting the existing item if you forgot
> to start by deleting the target. Or for reasonably small
> fields like URL's, just left-click to position at the start
> of the target and use the delete key to get rid of the
> part you want to replace before pasting.
Yes, but it requires a separate operation to delete the "replaced" text; it
can't be done in one operation. I admit that the "habit" I'm trying to break
is in fact a Wimp-dows one, but it is still more awkward to me. Like I said,
I'd rather learn the more convenient if less universal alternatives.
-- Rich C.
"Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people."
>
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David M. Cook)
Subject: Re: Linux code going down hill
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:15:43 GMT
On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:01:59 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It seems Linux is really going down hill do the lack of
>proper source control and testing. I have been trying out the
>latest release of Redhat, and the clear command core dumps on me,
>the "xterm" terminal definition is wrong, man pages are
>consistenly wrong, and various include files do not support the
>standards. Code that compiled on earlier releases, now bombs
>trying to include stdio.h! Is this code being worked on by a
>bunch of kids that failed software engineering class?
Could you otherwise elaborate on these?
It's not clear to me that all these are actually bugs. Have you reported
them at http://bugzilla.redhat.com (anyone can)? Someone may have already
reported them, and if so, you could give bug numbers.
I certainly have no problems with the clear command (in rxvt).
What standards are being violated?
How is the xterm terminal definition wrong?
What was the code that wouldn't compile? This may be a compatibility
problem with a newer glibc.
Dave Cook
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David M. Cook)
Subject: Re: Linux code going down hill
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:18:24 GMT
On Sun, 02 Jul 2000 01:44:13 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Well, solving technical issues was not really the point of
>the post. I can trace down and fix the problems easily
>enough except for the lack of maintaining the man pages.
This is exactly the point, you doofus. Linux is a community effort, and if
people refuse to report bugs and inconsistencies to the developers (for what
look to me like ideological reasons) they don't get fixed.
Dave Cook
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:28:12 GMT
abraxas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:> On 1 Jul 2000 19:25:27 -0500, Tim Palmer wrote:
:>
:>>Lern to speal EXCALLENT you FUCKING LIE-NUX IDIAT
:>
:> You are a fucking moron. If you can't get through a
:> single sentence without making a spelling mistake,
:> I suggest you leave the literary criticism to your
:> intellectual superiors.
:>
: I suggest you learn the fine art of trolling before falling
: victim to the same. :)
Trolling is not an art form, and should never recieve any praise.
The willingness to lie in public about what you believe is not
art. Being able to "sucessfully" troll is trivially easy, just
follow the following steps:
1 - Remove any self-esteem you may have. It will get in the way.
2 - Pick a newsgroup which has really stupid opponents.
3 - Pretend to be one of those stupid opponents.
That's all it takes. The silly thing is that trollers like to
think they've pulled a fast one on the newsgroup, and that the
newsgroup is full of gullible idiots. They don't seem to understand
that the fact that trolling is successful is due to the stupidity of
the opponents, not the stupidity of the newsgroup. You see, the reason
we can't tell whether or not an idiot is sincere is that there exist
people who really are that dumb, who would really say those silly
over-the-top things and actually mean it.
--
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven L. Mading at BioMagResBank (BMRB). UW-Madison
Programmer/Analyst/(acting SysAdmin) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
B1108C, Biochem Addition / 433 Babcock Dr / Madison, WI 53706-1544
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:30:53 GMT
abraxas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Actually, at the same time 'tim palmer' is indirectly shining a
: pleasant light on linux, Ive noticed that some of the linvocates
: on this newsgroup shining an equally unpleasant light by virtue
: of not understanding what true-trolling is.
: This is a beautiful example.
Trolling is never something that should be praised. It merely makes
people reluctant to put idiots in their place, since it becomes
impossible to tell the sincere idiots from the deliberate trolls.
No matter how over-the-top the satire is, it still can't outdo real
genuine idiots provided by nature. You cannot safely assume that
just because some post is excessively silly that it is insincere.
--
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven L. Mading at BioMagResBank (BMRB). UW-Madison
Programmer/Analyst/(acting SysAdmin) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
B1108C, Biochem Addition / 433 Babcock Dr / Madison, WI 53706-1544
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Trying Linux yet again....
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:40:11 GMT
Yeah, Hang around for a while....
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >As far as I know, Jeff has never really been intersted in getting
Linux
> >to run properly. He is more interested in getting it to fail so he
can
> >whine here. That's my own personal oppinion.
>
> So I've observed. But offering him sincere help instead of calling
him a
> moron and a Wintroll ought to confuse him, or at least deny him the
> satisfaction of getting a rise out of us.
>
> --
> --------------===============<[ Ray Chason
]>===============--------------
> PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
> Delenda est Windoze
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: CommyLinux vs Microsoft
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:55:48 GMT
On 2 Jul 2000 01:08:22 GMT, abraxas wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 1 Jul 2000 19:25:27 -0500, Tim Palmer wrote:
>>
>>>Lern to speal EXCALLENT you FUCKING LIE-NUX IDIAT
>>
>> You are a fucking moron. If you can't get through a
>> single sentence without making a spelling mistake,
>> I suggest you leave the literary criticism to your
>> intellectual superiors.
>>
>
>I suggest you learn the fine art of trolling before falling
>victim to the same. :)
This is not "falling victim" to a troll. Falling victim to a troll
entails dignifying their post with a serious response and making a
serious ( and angry ) attempt to refute their arguments.
I didn't offer any argument, only insults. Trolls seek to start flame
wars, which erupt from heated arguments on contentious topics. Calling
the troll ( and one who has no sympathisers ) an idiot is unlikely to
spark a lively debate (-;
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:51:43 GMT
On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:59:10 GMT,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Oh boy...
>
>Everyone is telling me how Linux(1) is more reliable than Windows. Well,
>here's one for you.
>
>1. Log onto the Internet with Kppp
>2. Go to http://www.theregister.co.uk/ with kfm
>3. Find the article on middle england and boycott the pumps
>4. Find the link "dump the pump"
>5. Reject the cookie
>6. The new KDE window starts up but looks unfinished
>7. Tell the new window to refresh
>
>All X applications disappear. A message appears briefly that looks like
>the cookie again, but I couldn't tell.
>
>Nothing works from now on.
Nothing works??? Really?? I just did this and all it did was crash
KFM. That made the icons on the desktop dissappear, all KFM windows
dissappear, and disabled kpanel from spawing applications. I still has
access to all my running windows, and to other virtual desktops. Both
the X server and underlying Linux OS were working fine.
>Logout is the only option.
Wrong. All I needed to do was restart KFM, which could be done
numerous ways:
1) Type Alt-F2 and type kfm at the prompt.
2) Switch to an exiting terminal window and type 'kfm', or better yet
'nohup kfm &' to detach it from the terminal.
3) Switch to a virtual console, i.e. Ctrl-Alt-F2, and type 'kfm -display :0'
4) Log in from a remote machine and restart kfm as above.
5) etc. etc.
>Now, when an application dies on Windows 98 SE, it can take out the
>whole system. Linux is better in this respect in that you can Logout and
>try again. However, I've yet to see an application crash take out
>Windows 2000 - it just carries on, just like Windows NT did.
>
But surely you've had to know how to type ctrl-alt-del to get your
task manager to kill an app and recover your system. Now a windows
newbie wouldn't know how to do that, just as KDE newbie doesn't know
how to restart KFM.
>(1) When I say Linux, I really mean "the Linux desktop".
But this whole thing is specific to KDE. When you say linux, you are
stretching it out of context. KDE != LINUX!!!!
>This is for
>those pedantic souls who took to calling me "moron" and "complete
>idiot".
When people have to explain the same simple thing over and over again
to you and you still don't get it what should they do???
Perry
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:49:31 GMT
If it was W@K you would have had to reboot!
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8jllne$lpj$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On my system, clicking on the XTerm icon did nothing. The main KDE
menu was
> dead also. Right clicking on the background revealed a menu that did
not
> stay like it does normally. Since _nothing_ appeared to be alive, I
logged
> out of X windows and restarted, I couldn't see what else I could do!
>
> Pete
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this!
Date: 2 Jul 2000 04:59:14 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: I shut down my Linux server, fine, no problems.
: I shut down my Linux workstation and it hung in Postfix... I tried logging
: in as root, but all the virtual terminals wouldn't let me even type 'root'.
Hmm - what do you mean by "linux server" and "linux workstation"? Can
I presume from this that the linux server has a directory that is being
shared remotely to the linux workstations, via NFS? Depending on how
you've mounted the NFS partition it might wait forever when it can't
talk to the NFS server. So, you shut down the NFS server, and then
the NFS client machine takes an infinite amount of time to unmount
the NFS drive - since it doesn't know why it isn't getting any responses
from the server, and it was configured to wait forever in case it comes
back up. To test if this is indeed the problem:
1 - Get both server and client machines up and running..
2 - On the server, kill the nfs daemon.
3 - Shutdown the client machine - does it hang like before?
4 - If so, while the client machine is still trying to shut down,
go back to the server machine and re-run the nfs daemon.
5 - Does the client resume shutting itself down normally and finish
now?
If the answer is yes, then the problem is as I described above. The
fix is to change the parameters on the cleint in /etc/fstab so that it
does not block when NFS is unresponsive (see "man nfs" for the
parameters to change.)
If the messed up settings came from a default installation, I'd submit
a bug report to the distribution maker. While there might be some
rare circumstances in which that behaviour is what you want, most
of the time it isn't - so it shouldn't be the default.
Also note that there is also a time associated with NFS - if it
gets no responses, it times out after X seconds, where X is
configurable in /etc/fstab. It might be the case that you have
an excessivley long time set for this timeout.
And again, if this is the problem, then if I were you I'd make it
a bug report to the distribution maker. Defaults should be reasonable,
and waiting lots of minutes for an NFS mount to answer is not reasonable.
(Since the only time you would legitimately get such terrible response
times is if your network was a shambles or you were on a modem. In
either case, you wouldn't want to be running NFS over such a connection.)
--
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven L. Mading at BioMagResBank (BMRB). UW-Madison
Programmer/Analyst/(acting SysAdmin) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
B1108C, Biochem Addition / 433 Babcock Dr / Madison, WI 53706-1544
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Subject: Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:53:35 GMT
On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:10:10 GMT,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>I'm arguing for some consistancy in the various types of desktop.
>Diversity is fine but anarchy is just crazy. If each and every desktop
>on Linux redefine the basics like Cut, Copy and Paste, that means if I
>switch desktops, the basic ground rules change. That's what I'm arguing
>against!
KDE and Gnome are working towards consistency. But Linux and the tools
that run on it have always been decentralized and theirs nothing you
can do to change that. Whining certainly won't help. If you can't
accept that, you should stay with Windows. Of course, Windows may not
be centrally controlled much longer of the USDOJ gets it's way with
the Antitrust case. If you want, you can contribute to KDE or Gnome.
>> On my home desktop, I like to use Windowmaker, becuase I like clicking
>> on the root window for menus and a task list, better than I like
>> moving the mouse down to a panel at the bottom of my desktop. However,
>> on my laptop, which has a smaller display and a touchpad, I like to
>> use KDE. With the touchpad, the Window Maker menus don't work as well
>> for me. Also, the smaller display means I occasionally run a window
>> maximized and can't click on the root menu. Of course, what works for
>> someone else is going to be different. I'm glad there are so many
>> choices.
>
>But are the basics the same in each case?
Yes they are, and I don't have any problem with it. I am glad to have choice.
>> Laissez Faire. A good thing.
>
>Desktop look and feel maybe, but could you cope with different flavours
>of CTRL-C for abort say? Or maybe CTRL-Z is redefined to mean something
>different. Wouldn't that cause confusion, no?
CTRL-C has meant abort for over 20 years. It is Microsoft that made it
mean 'copy' in their apps. KDE and Gnome are now doing it to mimic MS
Windows. Thus we have inconsistency between terminals and GUI apps
on Windows, KDE and Gnome.
>I'm not redefining terminology. I'm writing "Linux" in context.
You are distorting the context when you say "Linux". Most of your
whining has been about things specific to KDE, that could happen or
FreeBSD/KDE or Solaris/KDE as well.
>> Not everybody uses a computer in your context. Can't you see that??
>
>Yes I know that.
Then why don't you take some time an try to understand the context in
which others are using computers. At work I recently installed some
Gnome components on a SGI/IRIX machine becuase we needed to quickly
develop some UI's to a custom application and wanted to use glade. Now
if I run into some Gnome bugs should I claim they are IRIX bugs?? That
would be stupid. Similary, I think it is just as stupid to blame Linux
for KDE bugs.
Perry
------------------------------
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