Linux-Advocacy Digest #540, Volume #27 Sat, 8 Jul 00 17:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux code going down hill (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Steve Hix)
Re: Vote for the best WinTroll - COLA Oscars ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users? ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Linux lags behind Windows (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Russ Allbery)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux code going down hill
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:46:37 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting Aaron Kulkis from comp.os.linux.advocacy; Wed, 05 Jul 2000
[...]
>If they had any real concern for their customers, they would
>be getting them to migrate to ASCII. A full transition would
>take about 10 years...but DEFINITELY in the best interest of
>the customer.
I concur, but your statement that a full migration would actually take
10 years points out that while concern for their customers is an
important and noble requirement for a business, the short-term losses as
well as the long term losses which IBM as a fiscal endeavor would suffer
if they began such a change highlights the fact that a migration away
from IBM is in the customer's actual best interests. The value today is
all in interoperability; nobody has all that much technology that is not
widely available, and IBM needs to sell stuff more than people need to
buy stuff.
>My problem with BOTH IBM and Microsoft is that they put their
>customer's interests dead last...
My problem with almost all modern businesses is that they put making
money first, and making products not-first.
>Sure, they want the customer to stay in business... but only in the
>way that a leach prefers that its host stays alive.
Poisoning the well, profiteering, whatever you want to call it.
Business today is practiced with an incredible amount of not just
unethical, but immoral and even illegal strategies.
>> * I'm of the opinion that any attempt by any business to intentionally
>> use any customer lock-in method can be considered a potentially criminal
>> act of monopolization.
>
>Yes, in fact, IBM spent 2 decades in court because of this... and for
>the SAME sorts of issues which Microsoft is claiming to be "ok".
>As in.. vaporware (IBM was put under notice as early as... 1957, I
>believe, that any further vaporware announcements would result in
>huge fines...fines that would be as debilitating to IBM as the
>vaporware announcements were costly to IBM's customers and competitors.
>
>Example 1. until that time, IBM salesmen were trained to respond to
>any customer's comment about features unique to a competitor product:
>LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH and tell the customer that IBM also has
>the same feature...*anything* to disrupt their consideration of
>purchase of a competing product. By the time that they discover
>that IBM did not, in fact, offer the feature (usually, not even
>considered for development until *AFTER* the salesman called
>it in)... well, they would be too far into the planning to turn
>around and go back to the first vendor.
>
>Example 2: Bundling. First case was sometime around 1965 (at that
>time, IBM bundled programming support in with the sale of a machine
>oftentimes revoking ALL warrenties if *ANY* non-IBM-written code
>was found on the machine. This set precedent for ALL "bundling"
>issues.
>
>People think tha the IE bundling case was a new legal question.
>In fact, it was resolved over 30 years ago. BUNDLING IS ILLEGAL,
>pure and simple. OEM's and VAR's may provide bundling, but
>vendor's themselves may NOT.
The novelty of the legal question is not whether bundling is illegal,
but whether IE is bundling. Your guideline concerning VARs is a
worthwhile rule-of-thumb for buyers watching out for their own
self-interest in the technology markets. The problem is that "OEM" is
supposed to mean the same as what you mean by "vendor", not "VAR" (IBM
is both a vendor and an OEM, Microsoft is only a vendor, Gateway is both
an OEM and a VAR, though they're not a VAR for Windows because Microsoft
doesn't allow adding value during resale. In other words, the legal
issue you wish to define is that only the seller of a product can
bundle; the producer of that product can not. Unfortunately, the fact
is that both cases have too many exceptions where bundling is not just
ethical, but is a value to the consumer when performed by a producer,
but is anti-competitive when executed by a seller.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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From: Steve Hix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:46:04 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rick
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The "newish" Zips are USB. Imacs dont have USB. WHy expect SCSI
> peripherals to run on SCSI-less machines.
I think you meant to say that iMacs don't have anything *but*
USB.
There are a couple of USB-to-SCSI converters. Don't expect
great performance, but the SCSI Zip would probably work.
--
--
Steve Hix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Vote for the best WinTroll - COLA Oscars
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 19:59:31 GMT
Yea I know :(
Sadly my trolls have fallen on hard times the last few months. Linux
isn't as bad as it used to be and let's face it Windows is pretty
boring. Most of the good lines have already been taken.
I think the problem is that I actually have more in common with the
Linvocates than they think. Such as:
1. Don't like Microsoft.
2. Agree fully that Microsoft used deceptive practices.
3. Agree Linux makes a good server platform.
4. Agree Linux can save lot's of money in licensing costs.
5. Agree Linux is stable.
6. Agree Linux development has come a long way in a short time.
7. Agree Linux will continue to gain server share.
8. Agree linux scales and runs on multiple platforms.
9. Agree Linux will become a focal point for IBM on it's mainframes.
10. Agree Linux is here to stay in the corporate arena, mostly server.
11. Linux installs are far better than Windows assuming supported
hardware on both platforms. Mandrake 7.x takes 15 minutes for a full
install on my system and that includes Wine and kppp as well as
networking (basic).
DP
On Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:35:38 +0200, "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Steve / DP,
>
>Very good, but you lost points when you posed as the Wong couple. Even I
>could spot your "signature" in that post.
>But don't worry, you are still a strong contender.
>
>James
>
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> The best was my "Amy, the clueless Sysadmin" troll
>> Search deja for that one.
>>
>> followed by
>>
>> "The Stumps Maple products"
>>
>> The Linvocates were actually calling VT to try and help them out :)
>>
>> I thought STUMP (as in tree stump) and MAPLE would give it away but
>> alas I was wrong :)
>>
>> Followed by " How you know you are a Linux user"
>>
>> posted below for good time sake:
>>
>> ********Start one of my best trolls**********
>>
>> Amy ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>>
>> You know you are a Linux user when...
>>
>> Your wife threatens to leave you.
>> Your kids don't know you.
>> The mailman "hand delivers" your mail.
>> You call Dell for a pre-load and the salesperson has to refer you to
>> 10 different people.
>> You need 20 keystrokes for every single one under Windows.
>> You need to read the boxes of hardware to make CERTAIN it is supported
>> under Linux.
>> You don't bathe preferring instead to compile Linus's latest.
>> You expect your car to be fixed for free.
>> You expect Ford parts to fit in your Chevy.
>> You expect everything for free.
>> You use Latex and like the feel of rubber.
>> You find out nobody in your office uses Latex and your rubber
>> suit is not looked upon in a favorable manner.
>> You have to pay a women to help you with your rubber fetish.
>> She refuses....
>> Your boss yells at you for sending out undecipherable memos written in
>> StarOffice.
>> Memo's you receive don't translate well. No graphics or links.
>> You call your corporate support desk with a question about Linux and
>> they tell you "unsupported"
>> You look for decent software and there is none excepting for geek
>> programmer stuff..
>> You are forced to run Netscape.
>> You actually LIKE text based browsers.
>> You use VI because it is "Crunchy" Yep that one is right out of the
>> IMWheel Readme.
>> You end up looking for software in some dusty corner of Compusa.
>> You don't find that software you were looking for.
>> Your accountant never heard of Linux and runs Quickbooks instead.
>> Your friends laugh for no particular reason when you are near them.
>> They don't let you near them.
>> You don't really have friends anyway.
>> You go to a birthday party for a kernel.
>> When Netscape runs you are scouring those Soviet mail order bride
>> sites.
>> They are not interested in you.
>> You have the same bar of soap in your shower for 8 months.
>> People hold their noses when you walk by.
>> You enjoy reading a sorry assed group like this and standing in a
>> circle with the other LinoWankers ex"trolling" the virtues of this
>> Luser of an operating system.
>> You like documentation and documenting everything.
>> You like railroads.
>> You like looking up headers in dejanews.
>> You spend endless hours trying to track down a company that does not
>> exist.
>> You can't face reality.
>>
>> Amy
>>
>> *********End one of my best trolls*********
>>
>>
>> Notice the line that says "You spend endless hours tracking down a
>> company that doesn't exist?"
>>
>> That was a reference to my "Stump Maple Products" troll.
>>
>>
>> Come on guys!
>>
>> Vote for me!!!!!
>>
>> Dead Penguin (simon777 among others!)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:26:01 +0200, "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I have been reading this NG for the past couple of weeks and have found
>it
>> >most entertaining. Most of the entertainment has been provided by
>gentlemen
>> >like Steve777 and Tim Palmer. One can call it the Troll vs Geek theatre,
>if
>> >you like.
>> >
>> >I would like to suggest that we now have an entertainer's award - similar
>to
>> >the Oscar Awards - for these tireless entertainers.
>> >
>> >Voting may start ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >James
>> >
>> >
>>
>
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use?
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:11:56 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting Roberto Alsina from comp.os.linux.advocacy; Thu, 06 Jul 2000
>Matthias Warkus escribió:
[...]
>> X is for cut because it looks like a pair of scissors. V is for paste
>> because it looks like a tube of glue... or maybe like a funnel that
>> pours text into the buffer. Well, I use the funnel metaphor to
>> remember it.
>
>And the reason for Z is probably "well, it's right there with the rest
>of them":-)
Actually, I always remembered "Z" because of some weird "last letter =
last edit" link. That, and the fact it is right there next to the Copy
and Paste commands (so where the link between undo and copy and paste?).
The fact is, these keys were all chosen, I'm quite sure, because of
their physical position relative to the "C" key, which is the obvious
mnemonic for Copy. The X made perfect sense, then, for Cut. Now we've
got a pattern, so let's use "V" for paste! (Has the added value of
being associated with the proofreader's insert symbol, the carat.)
Since the Mac's Edit menu started with Undo, and then had Cut, Copy, and
Paste, it certainly seems natural to make the Z the undo key, given the
considerations so far.
>BTW: in the mac, these keys are less ergonomic than on a PC, because the
>modifier key is in the PC keyboard's "Alt" position, right below the X! So, on
>macs it's a bit painful to try pushing them with one hand.
Maybe on a current Mac keyboard, or on your specific Mac keyboard, at
that. But this is not a general issue. The problem arises from trying
to *add* the Alt and Cntrl keys to the Mac keyboard which previously
replaced them with the Command (that little doo-dad, it technically
called a flower, and signifies the Command key for reasons I can't even
guess) and the Opt (for Option) keys. Cramming two more "meta" keys on
after Windows stole the Macintosh's thunder caused a lot of ergonomic
nightmare finger-bending which wasn't necessary in the earlier designs.
The Opt key was replaced by the Apple key, as well, though I've seen
keyboards with both an Apple and an Opt key, I think, though I have no
idea how they were mapped. Add the Windows and the Menu key, and the
modern keyboard may as well be a space cadet keyboard.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:21:03 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting Austin Ziegler from comp.os.linux.advocacy; Thu, 6 Jul 2000
[...]
>This is not true; if you so much as *link* GPLed code into yours (e.g.,
>you're calling *functions* in the linked code, but not using the code
>itself), distribution of the combined work must be under the GPL, which
>means that your unique code must either be GPLed or under a licence
>that offers no *different* restrictions (e.g., a credit clause).
I'm not a programmer, so I'd like some clarification on this issue. If
you wrote a program which uses a function from a library which is GPL,
you only need to make your program GPL if you actually distribute the
library with it. Is this not correct? Granted, the "added burden" of
requiring your customer to acquire the library themselves if it is not
already available on their system might be something to whine about, but
this doesn't mean you can't write non-GPL software that uses GPL library
function calls, does it?
>> When you start inserting your own code in the midst of the GPL code,
>> then there is no good practical way to keep the credit for the two
>> parts separate.
>
>When you insert your own code in the midst of GPLed code, you are typically
>contributing back to the GPLed codebase.
Which is to say, it seems, that the statement is correct, and when
inserting your own code in the midst of the GPL code, there is no
practical way to keep the credit for the two separate. So if keeping
credit is important to you, it wouldn't make sense to use GPL code as
the basis for your development. That sounds to me like a good thing,
though I know it terrifies some without as much faith in capitalism and
free markets to find legitimate ways of making money when profiteering
is uncovered and prevented.
>[Aside: I'm not picking on Steve here, but have I mentioned that people can
>be confused by the claims about the GPL? I thought so.]
Maybe you gotta be a programmer to see it, but it seems perfectly clear
to me, and to everyone else I've explained it to.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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------------------------------
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:42:15 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in <8k77g5$7lo$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In all tests that we both did, my results were 5-10% faster than
>yours, consistently. Then, suddenly, you come up with a Windows result
>that is something like 15% *faster* than the same test run on my machine
>--- and which just so happens to be the only Windows test you did for
>which you also did (or reported) a matching Linux test.
>Think about it --- if the roles were reversed, would you believe me?
Belief has nothing to do with it.
>Say what --- why don't you do me a favour, compile the following with
>"gcc -O6", and time how long it takes to run (with "time bernies_prog")?
I'll get back to you on this one. How long does it take for yoy?
Pete
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users?
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:41:56 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Actually I burn copies and give them away all the time. I've given
> >some to the local library as well as the local high school. I get all
> >of my blanks for free, or almost free, so it's just a time thing.
>
> But of course you couldn't actually be bothered to mention the names
> of said educational institutions, could you? Because then one of your whole
> bunch of posts would suddenly become verifiable....
Or falsifiable.
Colin Day
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Linux lags behind Windows
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:44:37 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aaron Kulkis) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>common GAME HARDWARE.
>
>Most business don't give a shit about 3-D video cards.
As I said in another post, much more than game hardware.
Besides, the business I'm in, we care about 3D video cards. Although we
care more about 3D sound - something Linux does not have support for as
yet.
Pete
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:44:33 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting Leslie Mikesell from comp.os.linux.advocacy; 6 Jul 2000 14:23:05
-0500
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>Moral justifications that only justify the license in it's own right,
>>>but don't justify the lie about the license being free.
>>
>> It's no lie.
>>
>> Minimal encumberances are a necessary element of being "free"
>> in practice rather than merely in theory.
>
>It is really hard to defend this justification, given the large
>variety of software that really is free without the encumberance.
I think the reason this John Dyson troll is having such a great time
with the people who insist "free" means liberty and not zero financial
cost (in keeping with Stallman's politics, apparently, and in contention
with Dyson's claims) is because they don't want to back out of John's
self-imposed contradictions in order to note that the "encumbrance"
which seems to disqualify the GPL from being what you wish to insist is
"free" is what is, in fact, necessary to assure that the software
*remains* free, and that the intellectual property is not simply
available today without cost, but will always be available without cost
to anyone who may wish to use it. I find the quibbling amongst
programmers concerning the licensing to be somewhat interesting, if
rather unimaginatively repetitive, partially because it is their
insistence that they want to use GPL software for a development base,
rather than as an educational example, or simply as valuable (yet free)
software, and this is entirely foreign to my needs and those of the vast
majority which will benefit from GPL software.
Without the "encumbrance", these other varieties of software *can*,
whether they will or not, no longer be available practically or
feasibly, whether theoretically or not, for zero cost, because they do
not, according to the GPL defenders, maintain this encumbrance to
prevent subversion of their code into a commercial (non-zero cost)
product.
>>>Nice speech, but begs the issue.
>>
>> No, it is a description of the necessities of liberty as they
>> actually are in practice.
>
>If there weren't any really free software the proposition that it
>wouldn't be possible might be reasonable. But...
There isn't any really free software. It all has "encumbrances",
including the requirement to install and execute it, and the attendant
costs to configure and run and upgrade it, not to mention the cost of
migrating to something else when you get rid of it and the resources you
have to provide to gain benefit from it, though these are implemented by
physical reality and not licensing. GPL is the most free software
available because it not only has zero cost, as others might, but the
license also seeks to minimize many of these other costs by ensuring
that any GPL open source software you currently use will always be
available as GPL open source software in the future. Even a piece of
software which requires no license whatsoever (which the government
claims is not possible) couldn't be so free as that.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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------------------------------
From: Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 08 Jul 2000 13:40:26 -0700
In gnu.misc.discuss, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It is actually a reasonable case to make a theoretical argument, though.
> Suppose MS did actually copy the base code and would not have been able
> to if it had been GPL'd. The alternative would not have been MS giving
> away the source to win2k, it would have been writing something
> themselves that would almost certainly have been badly designed by
> comparison. Most of us would be affected at least to some extent by
> broken code on our networks. How can anyone possibly think it is a good
> idea to encourage that?
Nope, sorry, that doesn't work either. The code *was* available under a
license that actually has fewer restrictions than the BSD license, and MS
still wrote their own implementation from scratch. A BSD-style license
clearly did nothing to encourage MS to start from the existing code base
rather than reinvent the wheel.
Kerberos is a good justification for a BSD license, but not because of MS.
The saga of MS and Kerberos isn't usable as an argument in favor of either
type of license; it's orthogonal to licensing entirely.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:02:32 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting John Dyson from comp.os.linux.advocacy; Thu, 06 Jul 2000
>Austin Ziegler wrote:
>>
>> Then don't call it 'free'.
>>
>> > Instead you're spouting "free!free!free!" like a 3 year old
>> > without any consideration of the full meaning of that word.
>>
>> Nope. I'm saying that you're full of shit for pretending that
>> 'libreware' is 'free' (hint: 'libre' is the animate sense of free, and
>> software ain't animate).
>>
>I am starting to believe that some of these people actually commune with
>software (at least, in their psychotic visions.) Actions of animate and
>inanimate objects are merged, fused and confused when people have
>serious mental illnesses.
>
>I suspect that we are dealing with bona-fide crazy people.
>
>John
You, sir, (and I use the term lightly) are an entirely dishonest,
unethical, unreasoning, ignorant, insulting, and annoying troll, with no
desire to converse in a forthright and productive manner. Your every
conjecture has been unsupported, your premise contrived and meaningless,
and your methods scurrilous and duplicitous. You have not apparently
made even a token effort to discuss these issues intelligently or with
any integrity whatsoever. You are, as far as anyone reading your posts
here could possibly determine, entirely without integrity to begin with.
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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