Linux-Advocacy Digest #749, Volume #27 Tue, 18 Jul 00 09:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (T. Max Devlin)
Advocacy and Programmers... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish. ("David Brown")
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Phillip Lord)
Winmodems/ELSA Microlink 56k PCI (Mitterfellner Thomas)
Re: Of Free OS's and M$ pricing a little side trip! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (gLiTcH)
Can Linux Support PCMIA (Christopher Fardell)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Sam)
Re: Advocacy and Programmers... (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Can Linux Support PCMIA (Brian Langenberger)
Re: Advocacy and Programmers... ("David Brown")
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Christopher Browne)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:16:20 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>Yes. But, often "niche market" means "one customer development of a one-off
>thing". I've done a lot of that, and I don't really like it, but it pays the
>bills. :)
But that merely illustrates that it is the development of software as a
service which is paying the bills, not ownership of intellectual
property as capital. Unless you're righting in hooks so that they
*have* to come back to you. In a case like this, if you're going open
source anyway, what would be the point in *not* using the GPL, since it
makes sure your customer can't turn around and steal your work for their
own profit in just the way the GPL is being criticized for?
[...]
>Yes, and game companies go under fairly frequently even if they're otherwise
>"established". It's a very tough industry to be competitive in.
Again, because of the inherent demand for *development*, rather than a
focus on *ownership* of a product that locks in future sales. I can
understand how seeing the entire software industry be as competitive as
gaming might be scary for those inside the industry. Those of us
outside, you can understand, greet such a possibility with glee.
[...]
>Uh-huh. Accounting is still trying to figure out how to model products
>that have a huge up-front cost, and no measurable marginal cost.
Accounting is still trying to figure out how to turn this to its
advantage, because it means you've gotta be *really* competitive. The
huge up-front costs of software development are overblown, to understate
the case. I'll admit, its a lot harder than rocket science. But its
more forgiving, as well.
>Okay, if you'll grant that some kinds of software are different, I'll happily
>agree with you about the majority of the cases. :)
For sure. One size never fits all, in my book. Actually, I would go so
far as to say that there is a fundamental and important difference
between what we call "software" as it occurs in the majority of cases,
and these potential exceptions to whatever "kind" that is. Something to
do with the actual work of authorship and its relationship to the
deliverable. What kind of cases seem to work as "non-majority" in your
view?
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Advocacy and Programmers...
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:04:19 GMT
I have followed this ng for a while now. One very interesting fact I
picked up is the huge anti RAD (Rappid Application Development) fealing
of the Linux Programmers.
Well, I have played with Linux for three years now, and I must be
honest - I can not wait for the Delphi port to hit the market. I
can understand the arguments of coding for speed, and lets be honest,
RAD tools usually drag a lot of code that will never be used.
Anyway, with ever faster computers I believe the difference between a
RAD app and a "vi" written app will be very small (speed wise).
So, what I want to say is this: I believe RAD tools for Linux is a
must - especially Delphi and Builder (maybe also VB?). There are plenty
of M$ programmers out there playing with Linux, and now they too will
have tools to write some great apps for Linux. I belief we should see a
huge app explosion within two years after Delphi is available on Linux.
Just my thoughts...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "David Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:50:38 +0200
>
>Well, if you'll forgive me, *that*, I've got to disagree with. As a
>bald supposition, of course, it stands on its own; anything could
>happen. And if you're thinking that the charges for which Microsoft
>stands convicted are the limit of where we might allow that MS has
>broken the law, you have a legal truth, but I wouldn't call it the real
>truth.
>
I don't think that the crimes for which MS have been convicted are the limit
of their illegal behaviour (they don't even come close), never mind their
immoral or unethical practices.
>There's every reason to believe that Microsoft might be a company, but
>certainly not a large and successful company, if a competitive market.
>As far as I can tell, they've never had to compete in a competitive
>market.
>
People who have a completly free choice of software (i.e., they are buying
it themselves, without requirement for backward compatibility, having tried
several packages but without used any one long enough to get a significant
bias) will sometimes choose MS software. Not always, and not nearly as
often as MS marketing would have us think, but the fact is that some people
*prefer* to use MS software. For example, for producing structured
documents MS Word is the best general word processor for PCs. I don't use
it (LaTeX is vastly better for technical documentation, and on the few
occasions that I need a word processor or spreadsheet, I use StarOffice),
but if I had to choose between, say, Word Pro, MS Word, Star Office and Word
Perfect then in my experiance MS Word is best for structured documents.
The point is, MS software is not *all* bad. There are times when it is
quite good (especially some of their games, but they are bought in rather
than written by MS), and they have definetly inspired other software writers
to greater heights.
If MS were suddenly to stop all illegal activity (stopping its immoral and
unethical activities would be too much to hope for), I think it would be
able to continue as a software company. I think in some areas at least its
products would be competitive enough for it to keep going. The prices would
drop, its profit margins would plumit and it would have to work hard to stay
competitive.
I think that to a fair extent we agree - without their illegal practices, MS
would still be a successful software company, but it would not be the nearly
the size or monopoly that it is now.
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: 18 Jul 2000 11:01:24 +0100
>>>>> "KLH" == KLH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
KLH> Sometimes I don't understand how anything as complex as UNIX
KLH> can be as stable.
KLH> It's complexity is one reason I think it should be killed. Not
KLH> that I know of any suitable replacement for a general-purpose
KLH> operating system, but I don't think it is the OS I want the
KLH> future to use.
Unix is complicated I have to agree.
Part of this is for legacy reasons, part because of
creeping featuritis.
The main problem though is I think that what we are
asking the OS to do is a fundamentally complex thing, and the OS
reflects that.
To me its much the same as the flavour of the month case
tools that used to sprout out of every vendors catalogue. However much
people have tried to decrease the complexity of coding a lot of it has
remained.
Although I don't agree with what Churchill said, when he
was talking about democracy, I think his statement can be applied
nicely to unix, which is "its a worst possible operating system, but
its better than all the others".
It will be nice to see what OS's are like in 500 years time.
Perhaps they will have advanced somewhat by then!
Phil
------------------------------
From: Mitterfellner Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Winmodems/ELSA Microlink 56k PCI
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:50:18 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If anyone ever gets this modem to run under linux PLEASE tell me.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Of Free OS's and M$ pricing a little side trip!
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:58:00 GMT
In article <8l11gd$ni3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jim Broughton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > We can now turn our attention to the SERVER section of microscrews
> > product line. For those of you on tight budgets now is the time to
> > cover your eyes. Lets start with the SERVER version of winbloat
2000.
> > The current price for the upgrade is around $399. You must own
NT4. That
> > is for the 5 client version. It gets worse. The retail 5 client
version
> > is around 899 dollars. The 10 client version 1199. The 25 Client
Version
> > 1799 and last but not least the unlimited version at 2000 dollars.
>
> So THAT is why it is called Windows 2000! Because of the price it
cost to
> get the uncrippled version. Note in this I am only referring to being
> crippled in terms of limiting concurrent users.
>
> > If your interested in just how much its going to cost you to outfit
your
> company
> > with microscrew software I have given you a starting point to see
just how
> deep
> > your wallet is. Or if your like the rest of us here you can forgo
the
> expensive
> > M$ solutions and get the LINUX solution for free.
>
> What I would like to know is how much it would cost to have a Windows
2000
> normal retail price for Windows 2000 unlimited users AND the cost for
all
> the addons by Microsoft and by third party developers when need to
totaly
> replace everything that comes with <pick the current version of a
full Linux
> distribution of your choice> For, lets say a network with two
hundred
> workstations and two file and print servers.
>
>
Also refer to this site: http://www.incredible.co.za/
In South Africa, your net saving on the above scenario will be in the
region of R 510 000 - 00 !!!!!!!!!! (US$ = R/6.7 - approx.)
MS Solution : R 800 000 - 00 (2 x W2K Server, 200 x W2K Pro, 200 x O2K
Standard)
Linux Solution : R 290 000 - 00 (1 x ??? distro, 200 x Corel O2K Pro)
Of course, the StarOffice Path could see the net Linux solution shrink
to less then R 100 - 00 (Net Saving : R 800 000 - 00 > for all
practical purposes).
Repeat this with an upgrade cycle every 5 years, and where will you be
in a decade???
Some people just won't get it - no matter how hard we try...
Cheers.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:40:25 -0500
From: gLiTcH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
agreed
mlw wrote:
> gLiTcH wrote:
> >
> > so this now brings up a good question, which is more immoral: having sex
> > before married, or Microsoft's business tactics?
> >
> > "Javier Gostling D." wrote:
> >
> > > > >David, go out with some girls and have sex.. its more fun than Windows
> > > > >computing.
> > > To be honest, it's also more fun than computing with Linux, notwithstanding
> > > how much you like Linux ;-)
> > >
> > > - Javier
>
> Well, the fact is that one can not have sex 24 hours a day. If they
> could, civilization, as we know it, would never have happened. Nothing
> is (or should be) better than good sex. Computers aren't even as good as
> bad sex.
>
> The issue is, what do you do with the time when sex is not an option?
> Personally, I would not waste my time with Windows, unless I was payed
> very very much. Linux, better than sex? No. Linux better than Windows,
> yes.
>
> --
> Mohawk Software
> Windows 9x, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
> Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
> Nepotism proves the foolishness of at least two people.
------------------------------
From: Christopher Fardell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Can Linux Support PCMIA
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:45:12 +1000
Can Corel Linux support the PCMIA ports on a Pioneer Notebook?
If if can would it support an ethernet card inserted in that port?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:59:50 GMT
Slava Pestov writes:
> What alleged "Tholen emissions"?
That's just another one of Tinman's pontifications, only he doesn't
understand the meaning of the word yet.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:01:08 GMT
Eric Bennett writes:
> Jacques Guy wrote:
>> Soon, these newsgroups are going to consist of
>> nothing but messages from bots and to bots. Raw
>> bots, rough bots, tin bots, tholen bots
>> (those with a speech impediment). I wish
>> they'd post the source code
> You can start with the source provided by Dave Wang, and work from there:
>
> main(){char *a[]={"Illogical.","Balderdash.","Non sequitur.",
> "Incorrect.","See what I mean?","Irrelevant.","Poppycock."};
> for(;;)puts(a[rand()%7]);}
Insufficient, Eric, given that the code includes nothing to determine
when it is appropriate to use each response.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:05:54 GMT
Jacques Guy writes:
> Ah, but *today* these NGs seem 95% populated by bot posts.
What seems to you is irrelevant. The truth is relevant, and the
truth is that the percentage of so-called "bot posts" is much less
than 95 percent.
> The Tholen (who looks more and more like a Hasan B. Mutlu),
On what basis do you make that claim, Jacques?
> the Tim Palmer, the Man-In-Black... they seem to be spending every
> waking minute of their lives watching for a post to counter with
> their pithy pearls of wisdom.
Incorrect, given my digests are at most daily. That's a factor of
1000 less than "every waking minute". I will agree that Malloy's
"pearls of wisdom" are pithy, however.
> Z'ont vraiment que pouic a branler de toute la sainte
> journee, ces gonzes. [gonze = gazier = mec]
Any particular reason why you've changed languages, Jacques?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:08:14 GMT
Jacques Guy writes:
> Yes, Phillip Glass *is* a bit repetitive, isn't he?
There's a great "knock-knock" joke involving Philip Glass,
but it's hard to find someone willing to play along for
long enough to make it work:
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Philip Glass."
------------------------------
From: Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:58:59 +1000
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:04:47 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (phil
hunt) wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:57:29 +1000, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:59:09 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (phil
>>hunt) wrote:
>>
>>>I've just read a news article linked from Linux Today that Sun are
>>>thinking of open-sourcing Star Office under the GNU GPL.
>>>
>>>Does anyone have any speculation as to why they might do this? Apart
>>>from hurting MS, of course?
>>>
>>>The article is at
>>><http://www.zdnet.com/sp/stories/news/0,4538,2604174,00.html>
>>
>>They probably earn far less in sales then they spend in development
>>and support, so they may as well give it away just to piss MS off.
>
>They're already giving it way.
Only if you download it, if you really buy it (on CD) it costs
significant money.
By opensourcing it they are really giving it away and anyone can
distribute and modify it.
>>Maybe they can write it off as a tax loss ? It cost them heaps.
>
>IIRC they bought Star Office for $400 million.
Yes but where are the earnings from it ?
Sam
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Advocacy and Programmers...
Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:25:02 GMT
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:04:19 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>So, what I want to say is this: I believe RAD tools for Linux is a
>must - especially Delphi and Builder (maybe also VB?). There are plenty
WHy is it so important to get ports of the WIndows tools ? I think the
free native tools will be more popular.
IMO, any RAD
tool that isn't based on QT or GTK will not have much hope on Linux, they
really need to support the main desktops.
I also think that free rad tools will enjoy more widespread adoption. If
you haven't done so already, take a look at Kdevelop and glade. Kdevelop
is coming along quite nicely ( I haven't seen the latter for myself as
I'm not a GNOME-er )
I don't think VB will be available on Linux any time soon and I don't think
it matters that much.
As for "explosions of applications" coming from Windows tools being ported,
I dunno, I think the explosion is starting to happen already without them,
largely thanks to advances made by KDE and GNOME.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can Linux Support PCMIA
Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:42:59 GMT
Christopher Fardell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Can Corel Linux support the PCMIA ports on a Pioneer Notebook?
PCMCIA slots are supported at the kernel level, so hopefully
Corel was smart enough to include them as a kernel module. If not,
RedHat undoubtedly supports PCMCIA out of the box.
: If if can would it support an ethernet card inserted in that port?
Almost certainly. Check:
http://pcmcia.sourceforge.org/
for the full list of supported PCMCIA cards. The list of ethernet
cards is about 5 pages long, so yours is probably on it.
------------------------------
From: "David Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Advocacy and Programmers...
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:56:26 +0200
Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:04:19 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>So, what I want to say is this: I believe RAD tools for Linux is a
>>must - especially Delphi and Builder (maybe also VB?). There are plenty
>
>WHy is it so important to get ports of the WIndows tools ? I think the
>free native tools will be more popular.
>
Free and/or native tools are good, but there are a lot of people already
using Windows-based tools. There are also a lot of companies who are
waiting for ports of Delphi because they want to port existing applications,
or do cross-platform development.
>IMO, any RAD
>tool that isn't based on QT or GTK will not have much hope on Linux, they
>really need to support the main desktops.
Kylix (Delphi for Linux) is QT-based.
>
>I also think that free rad tools will enjoy more widespread adoption. If
>you haven't done so already, take a look at Kdevelop and glade. Kdevelop
>is coming along quite nicely ( I haven't seen the latter for myself as
>I'm not a GNOME-er )
Kdevelop and glade are under development - they are not yet suitable for
people who are used to being able to quickly write small applications with
Delphi. They are getting there, but they are not yet ready.
>
>I don't think VB will be available on Linux any time soon and I don't think
>it matters that much.
That is true - VB will never have the appeal on Linux that it does on
Windows.
>
>As for "explosions of applications" coming from Windows tools being ported,
>I dunno, I think the explosion is starting to happen already without them,
>largely thanks to advances made by KDE and GNOME.
>
>--
>Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:52:54 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Drazen Kacar would say:
>Christopher Browne wrote:
>
>> The "X hater" amongst them, Don Hopkins, has recently had things to say
>> about Gnome that I found remarkably conciliatory.
>
>I missed that. Any pointers?
<a href="http://slashdot.org/users.pl?op=userinfo&nick=SimHacker">
Don Hopkins / SimHacker</a>
<a href=
"http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/06/21/0046236&cid=208">
Pie Menus and Conciliatory Comments</a>
--> The Pie Menus discussion is the "conciliatory" one...
<a href=
"http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/07/14/1218257&cid=445">
Responding to Windows-drone/Macophile Contentions</a>
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Why is it that when you're driving and looking for an address, you
turn down the volume on the radio?
------------------------------
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