Linux-Advocacy Digest #757, Volume #27 Tue, 18 Jul 00 17:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: I just don't buy it (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("Matthew Majka")
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("John W. Stevens")
Re: which OS is best? (Paul E. Larson)
Re: Some Windows weirdnesses...
Re: Winmodems/ELSA Microlink 56k PCI (Mig)
Trauma 98-00 (Paul Gresham)
Re: I just don't buy it
Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it (Mig)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I just don't buy it
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:32:19 -0600
"Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > "Ian Pulsford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > There has been some discussion about M$ .NET. I just don't see the
> > > > advantages of it from a home user perspective or a business
> perspective.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Is a home user really going to want to store private documents on
> > > > some remote server?
> > >
> > > yes, if those 'private documents' are actually book orders or
> something.
> > > where would you store your amazon.com order?
> > >
> > > as for running word over the internet, this will bomb, but this is
> not
> > > what .NET is about. .NET is about developing web sites in a better way,
> the
> > > only C# demo i've seen so far was for a web store.
> >
> > Read the interview with Ballmer in this week's eWeek.
> >
> > .NET is going to be their deployment system for everything, including
> > Office, in the future. You won't "buy" software in the store anymore,
> > you'll just lease it from Microsoft's .NET servers.
>
> so, where does it says that you have to store your documents on the
> server? you can rent the software (which will be very unpopular, i think)
> from a central server, and still have all your documents saved localy.
I think both will be unpopular, and the death of Microsoft if they
attempt to force it on anyone.
I can't imagine renting Word 2002 over a 56k modem, much less storing
it's minimum-30kb-sized documents as well.
> right now, the net is mostly new APIs for developers, CLR, common
> language runtime, which basically becomes a new API you program to, and,
> thankfully, it will be based on WFC. then you have stuff like GDI+, which
> is more new APIs.
>
> then you have ASP+, which allows a HTML client to actually do more work
> than now (not less, as the original poster was complaining about). ASP+
> allows you to run your controls on the server, so the data exchange between
> a server and a client can happen on the control level, rather than on the
> page level. (but it is still supported for old clients). this actually puts
> more control on the client, not less.
Hmmm, exactly like jsp/java has been doing for years now?
> > After all, .NET is simply the next version of ActiveX/DCOM (which was
> > the next version of COM (which was the next version of OLE)). Nothing
> > magic about adding SOAP and MS-XML to the mix.
>
> but it is also more than that, .NET becomes a new Windows API. CLR
> classes become what win32 is now, but the fact that win32 api was terribly
> hard to use from VB is a thing of the past. also, OLE controls which were
> much easier to use from VB than VC become as easy to use from VC. (via
> WinForms). also, we get a completely new Java like language which will fit
> perfectly for this new APIs, the same way C/C++ was natural for the old
> Win32 API.
>
> so, you see, .NET is actually a new platform, a new API, Whistler will
> be the first to have it, but if we are lucky, those classes will be easilly
> installed on Win95, 98, NT, 2000, in a similar way the Java is doing it...
I'll be the first to stand up and say that Win32 should be thrown away
for something better. Here's to hoping for the best.
(But from everything I've heard so far, it sounds more like a scheme
to obviate HTML, Java and open standards while at the same time
getting people to rent their software.)
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Majka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:40:16 -0500
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Craig Kelley
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Craig Kelley
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Said Craig Kelley in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl Knechtel) writes:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > >Just don't try to print anything and then have your box
> > > > > >immediately
> > > > > >respond; even on our new G4 (which is some seriously cool
> > > > > >hardware,
> > > > > >BTW) the whole machine locks up for a few seconds when you print.
> > > > > >Oh,
> > > > > >and what was that new feature in 9? You could actually use the
> > > > > >machine while it was copying files? :) Fun stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought that was a new feature in System 7. It was, in fact.
> > > > > But
> > > > > then, Windows uses the same line of bull.
> > > >
> > > > Nope. I have a PowerBase 180 with System 7.5x and it locks the
whole
> > > > thing up while copying a file.
> > >
> > > Actually, it doesn't, IIRC. The Finder isn't multi threaded, so the
> > > Finder become useless while copying. But you can use other programs.
> >
> > ... but you use the finder to switch between programs.
>
> IIRC you can still start a program from the Apple menu and maybe even
> use the applications menu while the Finder is copying. It's been a
> while, but I remember figuring out a way to switch to another app.
<Apple>+<Tab> works for me.
------------------------------
From: "John W. Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:34:10 -0600
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said John W. Stevens in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> [...]
> >Yes and no. Apps have to know if they are CMT, and a fairly large
> >amount of time and money must be spent designing, profiling, then
> >tweaking "properly designed" CMT apps.
>
> I was under the impression (false, it appears) that this was of some
> actual benefit.
I don't see how . . . the end result of this tweaking would be to
generate a *SINGLE* set of applications that conforms to the
specifications of the tweaker.
Take one app out, or put another in, and you'd have to redo all that
work. Pretty wasteful . . . it's easier to set a policy (create a
pattern), then automate the enforcement of that pattern, than to require
reanalysis and human intervention for each *instance* of the pattern.
> Apparently, from all reports, it is merely attempting
> to make do with a lack of complete support for multi-tasking.
CMT lacks that set of information you described as "neccessary" in order
to tune the system to fit the users needs. PMT has some of that
information, and the new profiling schedulers have more, but o f course,
not even the newest PMT schedulers cannot do much more than basic
prediction.
> Could you explain "race condition" to me?
Race conditions actually apply to both CMT and PMT systems, though they
are slightly nastier under PMT because the efficiency of the system goes
up, so therefore, more bugs per hour can be flushed, and races have a
higher probability of occuring.
See, in two bodies of code of equal quality, the body that is excuted
faster will actually appear to be buggier . . .
> I think I grasp the general
> issue, but I'm not sure.
The classical example is that of the read/modify/write cycle.
Unfortunately, the word "read" is not actually correct. Think "copy",
instead.
Imagine an abacus, one used to accumulate the total contents of a
warehouse. Imagine two people performing the simple task of taking an
inventory.
The first person (Jack), counts a few items, then goes back to the
abacus, looks at the value, calculates in his head the new value, then
sets the abacus to the new value.
The second person (Jill), is doing the same thing: counting a few items,
before reading the current value on the abacus, calculating the new
value in her head, then setting the abacus to the new value.
But, what if . . . Jack looked at the abacus, then Jill looked at the
abacus, then Jack set the abacus to the new value he had calculated in
his head, then Jill set the abacus to the value *SHE* had calculated in
her head? Answer: the items that Jack counted in that cycle were not
recorded.
A related problem is that of deadlock, and is traditionally described in
the dining philosophers problem.
In both CMT and PMT systems, you solve the race problem by specifying
that a set of operations are always to be performed in an "atomic"
(non-interruptible) fashion. The dead lock problem is a more difficult
one to solve.
> I've never understood the explanations given
> to me completely, probably because I lacked the background.
In summary: Jack and Jill could solve their problem if both simply
picked up the bloody abacus and didn't put down the stupid thing until
they were done. Their mistake is in looking at it, then letting the
other person look at it before they finish updating the value stored on
it.
> They were
> good enough for the moment, but I forgot them very quickly. Why does a
> PMT app need to "understand" race conditions?
PMT and CMT both, actually, as race conditions are an attribute of
multi-tasking, not neccesarily an attribute of PMT.
Without understanding race conditions, a system that shares data between
two or more independently operating entities runs the risk of loosing or
corrupting data (as Jack's "data" was lost in the above example). A
real no-no, if the data under discussion represents dollar bills! ;-)
> >No, Max, there is no way to do it, because the information and control
> >neccessary to do it are not part of the CMT system. It's not a matter
> >of not having figured it out, it's a matter of two conflicting and
> >mutually exclusive requirements.
>
> Now that I feel comfortable with, actually. I did have a fleeting
> fantasy of adding the information without needing the control, but after
> thinking it over for a couple days, I realize there's little point in
> it.
The only point would be, I think, to be able to make the task of
tweaking one particular set of applications slightly easier. The
problem is, of course, that you end up forcing a human being to be part
of the loop, when the computer could do the job much faster and easier.
> >Of *course* they want to remain ignorant and out of control. They spend
> >good money fulfilling exactly those desires.
>
> Touche.
And there is nothing wrong with remaining ignorant . . . so long as they
are *aware* that they are ignorant and therefore they know enough to go
to an expert when an expert is needed.
I don't work on automatic transmissions . . . and I'm just barely smart
enough to *KNOW* that I shouldn't work on an automatic transmission!
:-)
> >You do realize, don't you, that you are talking about a statistically
> >meaningless data set? Your students comprise a self-selected data set,
> >so therefore no reasonable statistical analysis can be done.
>
> Well, I've had a very broad set of students; they are very much a cross
> section of the user population, I think.
Nope. If by broad you meant: "randomly" selected, then you'd have a
point, but remember: nobody takes a class that they don't need.
> If I were trying to prove a
> statistical relationship, obviously you are correct that they're not
> truly random. But for observational studies, it seems sufficient.
I'm ignorant: what's an observational study? I never ran across that
term in my study of statistics.
--
If I spoke for HP --- there probably wouldn't BE an HP!
John Stevens
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul E. Larson)
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:39:56 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine) wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Matthias Warkus
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
>on Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:19:15 +0200
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>It was the Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:38:17 +0200...
>>...and Tore Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> However, there is something called touch typing, that really requires an
>>> easily available Caps Lock key.
>>
>>The only things that really require a Caps Lock key nearly all suck.
>>- COBOL
>>- FORTRAN
>>- JCL
>
>As for JCL -- um -- let's just say I know // DD and that's about it. :-)
>
If the JCL is for VSE/VSAM systems created using ICCF. ICCF(at least up to the
version we use) will set all letters to upper case regardless of whether they
were originally typed as upper or lower case.
Paul
--
"Mr. Rusk you not wearing your tie." -- Frenzy 1972
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Some Windows weirdnesses...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:44:43 GMT
>Russell Wallace wrote:
>
>> FAT is one of the very few pieces of software I've ever come across that
>> I really trust. I've seen any number of DOS/3.1/W95/W98 machines
>> hard-shutdown due to power failures, crashes or whatever in the 12 years
>> I've been working with them, and FAT doesn't mind in the least - all
>> that happens is any uncommitted data was lost (obviously) and
>> CHKDSK/Scandisk sometimes finds some lost sectors (that wouldn't have
>> done any harm except waste a little bit of disk space).
You're out of your mind. FAT is the least reliable file system I've ever
had the misfortune of using.
It is kluge layered atop of kluge and should have never been used
for anything but floppy only systems.
------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Winmodems/ELSA Microlink 56k PCI
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:49:18 +0200
Mitterfellner Thomas wrote:
> If anyone ever gets this modem to run under linux PLEASE tell me.
Forget it. Win-/soft-modems suck even under Windows (only exception beeing
LT winmodem from Lucent)
Buy yourself at Conexant/Rockwell based external modem - they are cheap
and work great.
Cheers
------------------------------
From: Paul Gresham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Trauma 98-00
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:46:36 +0800
This is the advocacy room, so here's my drivel ...
I must admit as a consultant I unfortunately have to spend time on
windows, however for the past few months, almost everything I've been
doing has been on Unix, it seems even my most Windows friendly clients
are now firm believers that Unix is that way to go, especially for web
apps !! Yesterday I discovered and downloaded the Linux PDF viewer from
the Adobe web site, and printed a load docs off, my god they look good.
I'd recommend it to all linuxer's who haven't got fonts and stuff sorted
out properly yet.
Today, I finally gave up looking at some Powerpoint stuff, badly
translated by Star Office, and shutdown my laptop, after about 28 days
of Linux uptime and Java development (pretty good for a laptop). I
started up windows 98, and it looked, well, OLD. I remember how good it
looked when we upgraded from win95, but then a dead hedgehog would look
good next to win95. So I fired up some office apps and printed a few
more docs. I needed to get something back to these guys and used Visio
for a while ... now there are some benefits to Windows and Visio is one
of them. I tried to cut'n'paste a table in Winword (sorry MS Word 97)
and oddly enough it crashed. Not only that, but the doc was locked.
CTRL-ALT-DEL and I was lucky, no reboot this time, there it was lurking
on the task manager Winword, so I tried killing it off ... wow it
worked. I opened my document and started again.
After some tinkering around with a tech doc, Suddenly another exception,
bang, word, half dead again, but dead enough to loose the document ...
You know what, not a disaster, I didn't realise just how often I save
things when I'm using Windows, like riding a bicycle or being bitten by
a dog, you never forget. My frustrations with X are typically web pages
do not look right, I always end up seeing chunky fonts with no aliasing
etc, or trying to Cut'n'Paste from a Java IDE to Kwrite and so on,
things that just work in Windows. Even the lack of decent icons in the
file managers annoys me a bit.
As it happens, I've now gotten well used to X (I was a DEC Motif person
for a long time), the novelty of Gnome has worn off and I've switched
back to KDE, and to be honest, the things that matter work bloody well
on Unix. If you've got a pretty decent printer, print something off on
windows, and then compare it to a properly prepared ps file (for
instance the python docs). You'll be amazed at the difference, there's
nothing like doing typesetting properly, (and ... here's an oldie ...
Windows is nothing like doing ...). Things are not too obvious on Unix,
and its difficult knowing just what is out there, but some searching,
and learning, and you'll be far more productive than in Windows.
Generally when you get something on Unix it works bloody well, and keeps
on working, it works the way the programmer wanted it too, and it works
unhindered by strange quirks in the OS. Not only that, but most of the
time I find these apps are portable and will work in Windows too! But
would I use them on Windows ... NOWAY. Now as a programmer a lot of
things about Unix, but mostly I miss my keyboard macros, now I'm sure
its possible to find them, but I just never have, and never will ...
just recording a quick sequence and repeating it in vi seems so natural,
almost a sin for a programmer not to have this basic tool.
I've recently downloaded drivers for XFree 86 4.0 from nVidia and
drivers for my Soundblaster live from Creative, and QII Arena, fantastic
to have vendor support. I think ESS are gonna do some work with a guy
called Zabbo who is now an Ex-RedHat Driver hacker. So my laptop is
pretty well supported too. I have Adobe Acrobat reader, I have Star
Office. I miss Visio in a big way. My Printers are supported. Linux now
controls my windows machines in my China office and my Hong Kong office,
and even manages my small home LAN. I can take my laptop when I travel
from location to location, plug it in, restart dhcpcd and I'm connected
to the LAN and the web, whether I'm running windows or Linux, Something
that most blue chip companies I've worked for could not achieve with
Million $$ budgets.
I still have a book from 1994, called Linux Installation and Getting
Started by Matt Welsh, it came with a CD for Slackware 2.0, which I've
lost. On the inside cover is my system spec when I built my first linux
box, a 486dx50 (that's a true 50Mhz, not a clock doubled 25) 32MB Ram,
with a Trident 8900CL/8900D 1024K video card. It doesn't say what sound
card, but I remember it was an SB16 Pro. Damn it was fast compared to
windows, I think a kernel build took most of day if not more :).
Thank god they didn't force Bill Gates to make Windows open source, the
time is not right, now is the time for Linux, it's promise has been
there for a long time, and now its gaining pace faster and faster. We
will we've won the battle for acceptance in server realms, and we are
now on our way to becoming the chosen platform for the office/home
desktop.
Keep on supporting Linux, and open source, it's better for everyone, but
more importantly don't believe that things are easier on Windows. I can
assure you they are not, things are just done differently on Unix and it
just takes some well rewarded effort to make the switch. Just like
making any change in life. If you're a technophobe, then Windows will
just enhance your fear, as most of the time, you just don't know what
the hell is going on. On second thoughts, don't switch, use Windows for
the things you like, and gradually learn how to do things better on
Linux, you'll find that you will become a better Windows user, and will
also discover a whole world of open source applications that also run on
Windows.
A couple of weeks back I built a RH Linux box in less than half an hour,
a similar build of Win2K was taking a couple of hours to working even
remotely ok. Even then the autoconfigs of Windows were causing lots of
weird network traffic and stuff, which we had to track down and stop. As
well as configuring our Linux box to handle DHCP requests, dialup ISDN,
NAT (IPCHAINS) and firewalled Internet Connections, Two development
installations of Zope, Sybase Adaptive Server, we were also able to
write a little python socket handler which popens shell commands to
start and stop our ISDN connection. We then wrote a little java applet
served from one of our Zope installations which allows individual users
on the LAN to start up the Internet connection, when they need it.
Things like that just don't gel on Windows unless the company who wrote
the drivers decided to implement such functionality. Now this is a
64MB Machine, and the slowest cheapest motherboard/cpu we could find.
I must admit I am biased for Linux (with good reason), but I did have a
lot of depenancies on windows apps which I thought I could not live
without. I do have some advantages though over a typical non-techy user,
being a programmer means you can code a few things that you need, i.e. a
simple Python/TK money manager is not really a big app, and once you
build a few little functions into something like that, customise it to
your taste, suddenly you wish you'd never put 2 years worth of data in
M$Money. Try not to look for direct replacements for Windows things is
my point, sometimes there are other ways and following replacement
windows route may not be a good thing. Have a look around some of the
python and perl sites for little apps. Scour some of the java site like
jars, and definitely have a look at Freshmeat,net and sourceforge.
There's loads of stuff out there. Find things that work, bolt them
together, try them out, DO send bug reports (and fixes!) and requests to
the authors, my god, these guys build custom features into their
software, for you to use, and don't charge you.
One more thing, after using Unix for a while, you'll probably end up
typing things in more than with Windows, once you've typed these things
a few times, perhaps asked a few questions in the news groups, looked on
some websites, read some install docs, you'll find that stringing more
and more commands together becomes easy ... more easy in fact than
trying to remember where in the depths of windows gui's was that single
parameter you want to set (for instance to make windows explorer to
display in detail mode for all directories on W2K). Now perhaps you'll
start putting these commands into files so you can recall them really
easy when you need to, et viola you are programming. If you are reaching
these stages, definitely take a look at perl and python and other
scripting languages. If you can speak, you have the ability to give far
more complex instructions to another human, than most programming
languages are capable of, in other words, if you can give someone
directions, you can already program, don't be afraid of it, Microsoft
wants you to be afraid of it so you pay them to do everything for you,
and so you don't expect too much. It's really easy to start and you'll
love it. I know programmers that keep all there notes in text files, so
they can just use a search utlity (grep) when they need to remember
something. no databases, no programming, no gui just a load of text
files, full of notes, telephone numbers, and snippets of useful
information, and ten years worth of notes can fit on a floppy .... you
can't do that on most palm tops, you can on windows though, but how
often do you go to the dos prompt ... net very.
I remember the old DOS Applications like 123 and Wordperfect. In WP you
used to have to mark up your documents with little characters that would
do things like turn on bold, then have some text and then another
character to turn off bold. This was structured text, this was the most
popular wordprocessor of its time. Why did it lose, because you couldn't
see what it looked like until you printed it. Now on unix you can write
your docs in a simlar way, but with the added benefit of being able to
view them pretty quickly. You can even have multiple authors working on
different parts of the same document at the same time, store the files
into a version control system, and output them to PostScript, and PDF,
all for free ... what's more if something wierd happens in the document,
you can just go and take a look at what is wrong, you have the
structured text ... why is this word bold ? why does this comment always
jump to the top of the page, why can't I get the page numbering in the
right position ... these types of questions just don't come up unless
you are restricted to a graphics only program such as MS Word!
Thats enough from me, I felt a bit happy about Linux today and needed to
get on my soapbox.
All the best
Gresh
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I just don't buy it
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:40:42 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Davorin Mestric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8l25o2$s3n$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> great. then there is no problem in storing it on the server.
Consider these situations
You have been commisioned to write the script for the next installment in
the Star Wars series. Besides developing the script you have to be sure
that it does not leak out while in your hands. Would you feel save storing
that on the server?
What if you are a defense contractor?
What if you you are an attorney who is working in a court action against
Microsoft, whould you want to keep your documents on the server?
Would you want your childern to store their diaries and schedules on the
server?
Would you want to maintain your financial records on the server?
------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:03:16 +0200
Drestin Black wrote:
> was that a city filled with zealots who swore they'd take over the world
> when the most popular but not necessarily perfect "other guys" firebombed
> the piss outta it? or something like that...
Wrong assumption Drestin... Do you know in wich continent Germany is?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:47:46 -0400
Mark Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >Even a cursory reading of history should convince you otherwise.
>>
>> No. A cursory reading results in knee-jerk answers, as you have shown. A
>> thoughtful, reflective reading leads one to analysis and different answers.
>> -- Is government perfect? No. People aren't either and certainly not people
>> driven only by the profit motive -- which you are suggesting would do a better
>> job on everything if left alone.
>Try the cursory reading, at the least, and come back prepared to discuss the
>issue.
You're being a jerk. You know there are problems best solved by government,
and some best solved by business -- and some, that businees won't even work on
with government handouts -- Yet you want to paint the issues in black and
white. Are you on the far-right?
===========================================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===========================================================
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
