Linux-Advocacy Digest #833, Volume #28 Sat, 2 Sep 00 10:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Gary Hallock)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Rick)
Re: How low can they go...? (lyttlec)
Re: [OT] Bob Germer's Claim Of Welfare Waste Is Highly Exaggerated (Bob Germer)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Charles Kooy)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Bob Germer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:02:27 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
>
> Kennedy wanted to get us out (and there are tapes to prove THAT, too),
> but LBJ decided to insert 500,000 men instead.
>
Johnson also wanted to get us out - it was part of his 1964 campaign. Goldwater
wanted to extend to war into China and use nuclear weapons.
The fact is that every president since Eisenhower promised to get us out of
Vietnam and each ended up actually getting us in deeper. That includes Nixon.
Viewing Vietnam as Johnson's war is very simplistic.
Gary
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:15:38 -0400
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > > Finally, vouchers. As many of you may have seen, there are now studies
> > > > from three states indicating that minority students, particularly
> > > > Hispanic and African-American, do better in private schools. I think
> > > > vouchers are a great idea, *provided* that *extra* taxes are implemented
> > > > to pay for them. The bad thing about vouchers is that the money for
> > >
> > > Why do you need *extra* taxes for vouchers, when you have just
> > > stated above that the per-pupil costs of private schools are LOWER
> > > than that of public schools (Primarily to lower salaries, reduced
> > > red-tape and significantly smaller bureacracy).
> > >
> >
> > First, private schools charge "more" per student.
>
> Yeah, there are a couple of HIGHLY SELECT blue-blood boarding
> schools like Andover that cost more than the tuition at most
> colleges...
>
> But, by and large, the OVERWHELMING majority of private schools
> have lower per-pupil costs.
>
> Reduced management overhead is the primary reason.
>
Really? Do you know the typical management structure of a typical public
school? Its very light. Very.
> >
> > > > them, at present, comes out of public school budgets (so far as I
> > > > know.)
> > >
> > > So what?
> > >
> >
> > If you delete 25% of the public school budget, you might as well close
> > public schools.
> >
> > > If 25% of the kids leave the public schools through vouchers,
> > > then exactly what is wrong with the public schools having their
> > > budger reduced by 25%
> > >
> >
> > At the present time, public schools are massively under-funded. Class
>
> Then the private schools are even moreso...since they spend even
> less per pupil than public schools...but...somehow, the private
> schools spending less per pupil are yielding SUPERIOR results.
>
> Why is that....
>
Becasue the can throw students out for failing to perform. they have a
higher succes rate, becasue they have a student base that is better
educated to begin with.
> > sizes are extremely large. If you want better education in public
> > schools.. re-institute a students right to fail a course. Re-institute
> > having the student take responsibility for their own actions.
>
> Pull your head out of your ass, McFly.
>
Bite me. Or, come substitute for me.
> >
> > > Or are you arguing that the public school bureaucracy should be
> > > insulated from suffering the consequences of their failures...
> > >
> >
> > Their failures? Do not forget, the general public has insisted on the
>
> Yes...fucking FAILURES... like kids "graduating" from high school
> who can't even read their own damn diploma.
>
Very good, bunky... students no longer have the right to fail. They
"progress". Take it up with you locally, Statederally elected officials.
And take it up with the parents that dont take an active interest
intheir students progress.
> > changes made in the US school system. As thos changes have been
> > implemented, results have deteriorated.
>
> No.. the NEA insisted on such brainchilds as: throwing away phonics
> in preferance for "see-and-say"; "invented spelling"; "team learning"
> (also knowns as: the smart kid does the work, and the rest of the
> kids remain idiots); Left-wing social causes (global warming
> propaganda); toleration of anti-social behavior....the list goes
> on and on and on and on.
>
You really dont know anything about the NEA, do you?
> >
> > > > Competition is good, but I don't want to hamstring the public
> > > > schools by stealing money from them. Also, even with the vouchers,
> > > > many private schools remain out of budget reach for many poor families.
> > > > Being basically a liberal, I am very comfortable with making the
> > > > education my daughter's getting, and I in part am providing, for every
> > > > American. I can afford to send my daughter to my own school, so that's
> > > > where she goes. It seems to me inherently unfair that equally good
> > > > opportunities are denied many kids because their parents can't afford
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I think it's inherently unfair that many parents are denied the
> > > opportunity to send their kids to private schools because those
> > > funds are confiscated by the government.
> > >
> >
> > Public schools were instituted in order to guaranetee every had the
> > opportunity to get a good BASIC education. Public school was NEVER
>
> And yet, the majority of public schools are NOT providing even
> a "BASIC" education.
>
The opportunity is there.
> Or are you saying that proper spelling of the langauge now
> considered to be an "advanced" education?
>
> > intented to replace private schools. Read Jeferson's papers (thats
> > Thomas Jefferson).
> >
> > > Can't you see what is going on?
> > >
> > > They take everyone's money, and in return, run the school in a
> > > deliberately fucked-up fashion (Goals 2000 , invented - spellling,
> > > no-phonics-allowed, there is no "truth", only various opinions
> > > socialist propagand induction centers). Since the money has
> > > ALREADY been filched from the parents, most don't have the $$$
> > > to send their kid to a decent school.
> > >
> >
> > Read your history. Your statement is untrue. People continue to buy
> > "name-brand" consumer goods instead of saving. The country is at almost
> > full employment. Statistically, it is at full employment. People DO have
> > more money to use for private tuition then they have had in the past.
>
> Simple observation of the relevant facts proves that I am correct
> and RICK is fucked up.
>
Check the facts with the Deparment of Labor and your local welfare
boards. BTW, you are rude and impolite.
> >
> > > Thus, the public school systems are now actually being used by
> > > the rich plutocrats to make sure that *only* their own kids have
> > > a good education, and keep everyone else's kids dumb, apathetic,
> > > and dependant....at their OWN expense!
> > >
> >
> > This is untrue.
>
> Facts are on my side.
>
What facts?
> >
> > > > The public schools can be made better. This will, (sorry, Joe)
> > >
> > > But they won't be. Improving the public schools is in direct
> > > conflict with the goals and interests of the powers that be.
> > >
> > > > require more money; but it doesn't necessarily buy better teachers.
> > >
> > > No. It will require taking all of the current school board members,
> > > bureaucrats, and professors of "education" at the university, and
> > > lining them all up against the wall to face a hail of machinegun
> > > bullets....this will serve as a warning that the NEXT crop of
> > > people to fill those positions had better get it right, or the
> > > same thing is likely to happen to them.
> > >
> >
> > You seem to forget all the parents that dont help Johnny read, or insist
> > that Johnny (or janey) does homework. They allow Johnny to go get jobs
>
> How is this any different from the 1950's?
>
In the 50's, parents DID take a more active role. Find some teachers
that were active inthe 50's. Ask them.
> > and stay out too late at night. They expect schools to raies their
> > children, but not to instill basic ethics. And heaven forbid that Johnny
> > might actually fail a course.
>
> Don't give me that load of crap. My aunt actually had to INSIST
> that my cousin not be promoted from 5th grade to 6th grade (because
> he was failing in practically every subject)...when the PUBLIC
> SCHOOL TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATORS were saying that it would be
> best to promote him "so that he can stay with his friends"
>
You might want to balance your little diatribe with the knowledge that
those administrators are working in a system put in place by your
elected officals.
> big fucking deal. I guess a bunch of friends who you will never
> see after graduation day are more important than an education?
>
You are not the only person in the universe. Students usually follow a
herd mentality.
> >
> > > Unfortunately, this is highly unlikely. But hey, remember what
> > > happened in Romania to Ceacescau and his wife.
> > >
> > > > There is also a fear with vouchers that the better students (and perhaps
> > > > better teachers) will bail out of the public schools, leaving only the
> > > > terrible and less capable behind. But of course, the public schools
> > > > can improve. Here's proof.
> > >
> > > Who cares. IF the lousy students languish, society looses very little.
> > >
> >
> > .... how will they get jobs?
>
> Look, when a student REFUSES to learn, throwing 1 MILLION dollars
> at his education isn't going to change things a bit, you moron.
>
Thats right, you rude person... thats why social promotion doesnt work.
teachers were saying that when it was first proposed. It also doesnt
help that almost anyone can get a job these days. No one values an
education.
> >
> > > Throttling back the main engine just because the auxillary motor
> > > can't produce the same power is hardly a wise decision.
> > >
> >
> > What?
>
> Yes, you are too stupid to understand the analogy.
>
Really? mayabe you should substitute for me. Im sure you could handle my
classes much better than I can (in case you didnt catch it, thats
sarcasm)
> You don't hold up the whole school system based on the learning
> rate of the dim-witted.
>
Thats exactly what happens in a typical classroom. You have to tech to
slightly belove the median level. The "dim-witted" and the "gifted" then
become bored and problems develop.
>
> > > Our society has a great NEED for the brightest kids to be as well
> > > educated as possible REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL THE DUNDERHEADS ARE DOING.
> > >
> >
> > Sell that to the parents and the courts.
> >
> > > Or are you arguing that becuase some children are the victims of
> > > educational malpractice, then all children should be the victims
> > > of educational malpractice.
> > >
> >
> > You ask a question...
> >
> > > Goddamn, you're a fucking sadistic son of a bitch.
> > >
> >
> > .. and then cuss him out without an answer?
>
> Damn straight. And you too, if you don't watch it.
>
Ive noticed you have a complete lack of social graces.
> >
> > > >
> > > > There are some really excellent public schools out there,
> > > > the equal of any private education in the country. Stuyvesant,
> > > > Bronx Science, Hunter, Music and Arts, Brooklyn Polytechnic in NY,
> > > > Blair in Silver Spring, Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria, Euclid
> > > > near Cleveland, New Trier and IMSA here in Illinois, Ben Franklin in
> > > > my home town of New Orleans... The list is not that short. What
> > > > these are, others can become.
> > > >
> > > > In many cases the determining factor is parents who are at least
> > > > middle class, well educated, and politically savvy. These parents
> > > > work hard with their kids and for their kids so that they will
> > > > succeed. And succeed they do.
> > >
> > > The only real difference is that some parents take an interest in
> > > their kids education, and others don't.
> > >
> > That is a very real differnence. EVERY study shows parental involvement
> > increases student success potential.
>
> Oh fucking well. If parents have no interest in the success of
> their own genetic progeny, why should *I* take any more interest
> in extending this obviously defective genetic lineage.
>
Social conscience?
> >
> >
> > > Those who *DO* take an interest in their kids education should not
> > > be made to have their kids suffer just because the other parents
> > > in the neighborhood are apathetic, self-centered boobs.
> > >
> >
> > They arent. They can take part in the education of their children. They
> > can take control of the local school board. The can insist that their
> > choldren complete work, despite what anyone else does.
>
> And yet, this isn't working. Why is that.
>
Because they arent doing it.
> >
> > > >
> > > > David Derbes [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >So much for your arguments.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > > Unix Systems Engineer
> > > ICQ # 3056642
> > >
> > > I:
> >
> > BTW, nettiquette says that signatures should be short.
>
> Screw you.
>
A perfect example of the product of our broken social system.
--
Rick
* To email me remove theobvious from my address *
------------------------------
From: lyttlec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 13:20:30 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said lyttlec in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >Christophe Ochal wrote:
> [...]
> >MS implemented its extensions to break everyone not using the MS
> >version, which was only available if you were running an MS OS. Their
> >extensions were kept secret behind a no-reverse-engineering EULA. The
> >Kerberos team made a mistake in thinking that people could be trusted
> >with freedom.
>
> Yes, but everyone else made the mistake of thinking the EULA was valid.
> A no-reverse-engineering clause in a license for copyrighted material
> (software, obviously) seems to be in direct opposition to the decision
> of Vault v. Quaid, 1988. The Kerberos team made a mistake in thinking
> that a monopolist can inhibit freedom.
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> -- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
> of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
> Research assistance gladly accepted. --
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
A monopolist can inhibit freedom by simply making it difficult and
expensive to fight them. I think it took about 15 minutes for someone to
find a way around the MS EULA, but who has money and time to fight MS?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Bob Germer's Claim Of Welfare Waste Is Highly Exaggerated
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 13:31:17 GMT
On 09/01/2000 at 07:11 PM,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk) said:
> And that for some reason he thinks the Vice President has
> only one name instead of two.
Well, you certainly are well named: Bilk
That according to my dictionary is to defraud. You are certainly
defrauding the readers here with your Democratic party lies referring to
Democratic Party controlled websites for statistics.
And yes, the asshole running on the Democratic ticket for President
deserves only one name because he is nothing more than Bubba's dog.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
Finishing in 2nd place makes you first loser
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charles Kooy)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:42:23 +0100
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Left-wing social causes (global warming
> propaganda)
Uhm, what precisely is 'left wing' about global warming? I think the
majority of people would refer to it as an issue that concerns everyone.
Nothing political about it.
ck
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:00:01 GMT
On 09/01/2000 at 05:25 PM,
Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> At the present time, public schools are massively under-funded. Class
> sizes are extremely large. If you want better education in public
> schools.. re-institute a students right to fail a course. Re-institute
> having the student take responsibility for their own actions.
Debunking this makes everything you post fit only for the bit bucket.
My wife was a teacher in an inner city public school in a rust belt city
for 31 years. I kept many of her class records for her on my computers
beginning in 1984. I have every class list from that time until she
retired two years ago. AT NO TIME DID SHE EVER HAVE MORE THAN 22 STUDENTS.
In five of those years her class size was less than 15. Any time ANY
teacher in that district had more than 17 students, he or she had a FULL
TIME, qualified, classroom aide.
Conversely, the four private schools in the area, had average class sizes
of 25 or more students. Two of those schools were run by Roman Catholic
parishes, one by a Black Church, and one by the Episcopal Diocese. Tuition
at the first three never exceeded $500 per student per semester. The
Episcopal school, St. Mary's Academy and Doane Hall, charged about $7,000
per student per year. Of course, even that was more than $2,000 a year
LESS than the Burlington City cost per pupil which exceeded $9,000 per
year in 1997.
Now, Mr. Big Spender, tell us just how the public schools of Burlington
City, NJ are under-funded when they garner far more per pupil than private
schools such as St. Mary's which is ENTIRELY SELF-SUSTAINING and has to
pay every teacher, etc. BTW, St. Mary's only hires state certified
teachers as do the public schools and pays as much or more than the City
schools.
Take also two other private schools in the immediate area, Moorestown
Friends and Westfield Friends. Both are fully self-sustaining. Both are
top rated schools.
At Westfield, where class size is limited to 14, tuition from K-4 is
$6,000 per year. From 5-8 it is $7,000. However, each additional student
from the same family gets a $1,000 reduction. All teachers are
state-certified.
At Moorestown, the class size is limited to 18 in the elementary grades
and 15 in the secondary school. Tuition is comparable to that of
Westfield. Again, all teachers are fully state-certified.
Having served as a school board member in our home community, I can tell
you where the difference lies. It is in ADMINISTRATION. The City Schools
have more clerical employees in the Board Office than St. Mary's and
either Westfield or Moorestown COMBINED. Burlington City High School has
more administrators for its <1,000 pupils than Moorestown, Westfield, St.
Pauls, All Saints, and St. Mary's combined which educate well over 3,000
total pupils.
Oh, and by the way. In the City Schools, pupils must pay for their lunch.
Those from low and moderate income families get reduced or free lunch
which is paid for by a Federal Program and is "off budget". At Moorestown,
Westfield, and St. Mary's, lunch is included in the tuition.
Under funded? Not by a long shot.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
Finishing in 2nd place makes you first loser
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
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