Linux-Advocacy Digest #923, Volume #28 Tue, 5 Sep 00 11:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn..... (Brian
Langenberger)
Re: How low can they go...? ("Christophe Ochal")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Christophe Ochal")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Christophe Ochal")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Christophe Ochal")
Re: businesses are psychopaths (Richard)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn.....
Date: 5 Sep 2000 14:51:57 GMT
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Thomas Corriher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:> Didn't Abraham Lincoln's computer use core memory? I think
:> I remember that from history class.
: No, but there's a story about using an apple's core to store a
: list of soldiers during the American Domestic War.
: On the other hands, on Lincoln ages, `computer' meant a worker
: person who did the computing. The first computing machine was
: IIRC Charles Babbage's Differential Engine. Unfortunately the
: English govrnment didn't grasp the importance of that project.
Babbage was definately ahead of his time. He kept tinkering with
the Difference Engine as he thought of new ways to improve it
but never quite finished it before his venture cap..er..government
funding ran out. He then went on to design his Analytical Engine,
which, when completed, would've been the size of a locomotive
(IIRC) - but he could never quite get funding for that one either
for obvious reasons.
The technology of the time just hadn't caught up with his ideas
yet, so it's doubtful any amount of funding would've helped.
------------------------------
From: "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:16:38 +0200
Seán Ó Donnchadha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>
> >>What do you expect from the guy who said that software products can't
> >>be damaged because it's all just bits?
> >
> >What, they get dented in shipping;
> >
>
> Ah, so getting dented in shipping is the only way for a product to
> become damaged, eh Max? Who's using "common wisdom" now?
>
> Look, you're welcome to continue formulating theories about things of
> which you're totally ignorant. Don't be surprised, however, when those
> theories end up being ludicrous and people let you know about it.
>
> >
> >how many months ago was that, or is
> >it just something you're misquoting from recently, or just entirely
> >making up?
> >
>
> Me: BTW, because Windows had shipped with a componentized IE for
> quite a while before the case went to court, MS is *ENTIRELY*
> correct when they say that removing it is impossible without
> damaging the product.
Then how come some guy pulled it off? (i don't remember his name, i read it
in login (french mag))
> You: That's bullshit. Its software. Nothing can "damage" it.
Define demage
Amon_Re
------------------------------
From: "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:40:06 +0200
D'Arcy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in berichtnieuws
L17t5.9036$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:c36t5.802$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > They are in no way closing their technology to alternative platforms.
> > "Open Source" is not an "alternative platform", it's a development
model.
>
> > I said 'opening up', i didn't mean they should go open source, i meant
> that
> > they should allow people to write a DVD player for alternative and small
> > platforms
>
> And how exactly are they stopping that from happening?
> (See below before bothering to answer).
>
>
> > > They do. Unless you can identify precisely where and how use on
> > > "alternative platforms" is disallowed.
>
> > The licence, it's to expensive for anyone to go out & buy one, with the
> > intent of having it freely available, linux isn't by far the smallest
> > alternative OS out there
>
> Ah so they stop people without money from developing DVD
> software on alternative platforms. Well that is different than
> not allowing people to write a DVD player for alternative
> platforms.
This is what i initially meant, they should be looser in their licencing, do
you know just how many OS's there are out there?
Like AROS, EROS, Etc? These are done by students, and because of such
licencing they *can't* create dvd players for these platforms. (You can't
seriously expect a couple of students to go & buy a licence now can you?)
Their attitude won't hinder piracy at all, and arresting a kid because he
figured out their encoding isn't really gonna give them a humane image
neighter, not to mention that their lawsuits against people for linking to
the DeCSS code is an infringement on human rights aswell.
Also, i *DO NOT ACCEPT* the fact that one needs to *GET* a licence in order
to *VIEW* data.
Amon_Re
------------------------------
From: "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:43:22 +0200
Zenin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Christophe Ochal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : D'Arcy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef:
> >snip<
> :> What legal reasons do you have for not being able to create DVD
software
> :> for, say, Linux? The legal issues are that you have to license to
stuff
> :> and keep it closed source.
> :
> : What if you link with a GPL program, as most are on linux?
> : You do know the GPL right?
>
> Applications that run on Linux do not need to be GPLed, and may
> aren't (Netscape, Oracle, Sybase, etc, etc).
>
> However, a GPLed DVD player is impossible for all practical
> intentions as the holders of the DVD encoding algorithm patent (not
> copyright, AFAIK) do not want the algorithm public in any way,
> shape, or form. See www.2600.org for details of what happends to
> you if you attempt to make said algorithm public...
I know, but even if you make a close source player, you *can not* link to
any GPL software, as this would mean that your program will be GPLed aswell
Also, i find it a violation of human rights that they wish to keep something
out of the public, expecially since there are laws that say that reverse
engeneering is allowed in order to be compatable with said program/data (in
Belgium anyway)
Amon_Re
------------------------------
From: "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:44:22 +0200
D'Arcy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in berichtnieuws
247t5.9038$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Christophe Ochal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:c36t5.804$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > D'Arcy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in berichtnieuws
> > czYr5.6260$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > > >> Then why not allow people to actually *USE* them on alternative
> > > platforms?
> > > > >> If there were a DVD player for the Amiga i'd have a DVD-Rom drive
> by
> > > now
>
> > > > >They do allow them to use them on alternative platforms... it is
> > > > >called a license. What part of that do you not understand?
>
> > > > The part that allows for a licence on something that by all
> > > > rights, and even by recent law should be free to be reverse
> > > > engineered.
>
> > > So no technical reasons - just moral ones.
>
> > What moral ones? The 11th commandmand : "Thee shall squash small OS's"?
>
> So the DVD license holder is attempting to "squash small OS's"...
> and why exactly is the DVD license holder trying to do that?
How much do they ask for a licence?
Amon_Re
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: businesses are psychopaths
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:53:10 GMT
Christopher Browne wrote:
> Ayn Rand may have been pretty flakey, but did correctly observe that acts
> in favor of family/descendants can indeed occur for "selfish" reasons.
> A mother may give up a meal to her child, and whilst it appears "selfless"
> in that it benefits another, it can also be "selfish" in that she (for
> whatever reasons) valued her child being fed more than she valued being
> fed herself.
Which is just hysterical nonsense. You're just redefining selflessness
as selfishness on the ludicrous grounds that selfless people want to
be selfless. Yeeeaaaaaahhhh.
> Thus, I'd think that all that the "selflessness out of selfish genes"
> demonstrates is that it's easy to construct sentences that juxtapose
> things that _appear_ to be opposites whilst proving nothing of the
> sort...
No, all it proves is that some people have their deeply irrational
beliefs.
It is perfectly sensible for genes to program their tools (humans)
to act in a selfless manner. And propagating the genes is *not* in
the interest of any *individual*, it's only a selfless biological
imperative programmed into people by selfish genes.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:00:56 -0300
"T. Max Devlin" escribió:
>
> Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> [...]
> >> >Of couse this many soon all become a moot point with the release of Qt/Unix
> >> >2.2 under teh GPL. Although this message does reinforces point of
> >> >centention. A possible true reason for KDE to have used Qt instead of
> >> >somethine else, since Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project is a
> >> >Trolltech employee.
> >>
> >> Well this would only make sense if TT hired him before he founded KDE.
> >
> >Which they didn't. IIRC they hired him around the date of KDE 1.0, which
> >was about 2 years later.
>
> Yes, but that's another problem, in the end. When and why, precisely,
> did they hire him.
IIRC, around late 1998, and IMHO, it was because he's a damn good
programmer. He is probably one of the three best C++ programmers
I have had the pleasure of reading, and he does write the best
code (others write MORE code, though).
> What was he doing before that?
Going to school and writing free software.
> What was his relationship to harmony?
None.
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:02:30 -0300
Donovan Rebbechi escribió:
>
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:48:23 -0400, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
> >>Which they didn't. IIRC they hired him around the date of KDE 1.0, which
> >>was about 2 years later.
> >
> >Yes, but that's another problem, in the end. When and why, precisely,
> >did they hire him.
>
> I don't see why we need more precision than that. However, it seems
> appropriate to describe the state of affairs when he was hired:
>
> (*) KDE was already at the stage where moving it to a library other
> than QT would have been very difficult.
>
> (*) The GNOME project had already started. At this stage, they were
> still releasing beta/alpha software. GTK was a reasonable toolkit,
> only a few minor versions off the current one.
>
> (*) Harmony ? I think the Harmony project probably had been announced,
> though they hadn't released a working product ( in fact they
> never released such a thing )
>
> > What was he doing before that?
>
> He was the head of the KDE project.
No. KDE has no "head", really. We are run by comittee,
and proud of it ;-)
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:07:49 -0300
"T. Max Devlin" escribió:
>
> Said <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> [...]
> >Of couse this many soon all become a moot point with the release of Qt/Unix
> >2.2 under teh GPL. Although this message does reinforces point of
> >centention. A possible true reason for KDE to have used Qt instead of
> >somethine else, since Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project is a
> >Trolltech employee.
>
> Jesus H. Christ, its like a soap opera. *Now* I find out that the
> mysterious 'Matthias', is none other than.... (dum dum duuummmmmm)
>
> LOL!
>
> >From http://www.trolltech.com/company/announce/gpl.html
> [...]
> >The K Desktop Environment (KDE), one of the largest open source projects
> >based on voluntary work from all over the world, will benefit greatly from
> >the new licensing. In the past, KDE has received some criticism for choosing
> >Qt as its basis. "While Qt was without a doubt the best technical choice,
> >some members of the free software community didn't agree with Qt's
> >licensing," explains Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project and
> >Trolltech employee. "Thanks to Trolltech's new licensing scheme, the
> >upcoming KDE-2.0 will receive full acceptance throughout the community."
>
> I don't know what to say. Here... when....
>
> For...
>
> What, are you saying I just didn't ask the right fucking question?
>
> Am I to believe there's no-one on COLA(!) that knew, or at least thought
> to mention, that Matthias Ettrich, founder of the friggen KDE
> PROJECT(!!) is an "and TrollTech employee"?
Yup. It's not like it was some sort of secret. Allow me to tell you
that at least one KDE developer is also a Red Hat employee, and
another a Mandrake employee.
> You know, if I'd though that I'd have gotten a straight answer (not even
> considering the possibility of 'paydirt'), I'd have ASKED, "Is the
> founder of the KDE project a TrollTech employee?" I would hope that if
> I had, somebody would have finally thought to say "You know, Max, now
> that you mention it, Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project, is a
> TrollTech employee."
Yup. I would have told you so.
> But, you know, considering I was having trouble
> doing *anything* but making myself look like an idiot asking stupid
> questions about KDE and QT, for what I was repeatedly told no apparent
> reason, beyond a desire to stir up trouble and lie (!!!), and all the
> while never even imagining that Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE
> project, is a TrollTech employee, I'd have thought somebody might have,
> you know, just casually _mentioned_, "Yea, sure Max, when you ask 'what
> is the relationship between TT and KDE', the correct answer would be
> 'Well, Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project, is a TrollTech
> employee.'"
That doesn't seem like the obvious answer. At least to me.
I don't care much where my friends work.
> It might have crossed somebody's mind, at least, when I was
> being ridiculed for, well, several weeks, it seems, for asking questions
> about KDE, and at many times it seemed solely with the purpose to
> illustrate how reticent certain posters were being in appearing less
> than forthright about any possible relationships between the two that
> might raise a question about TrollTech, based on KDE, and for saying
> "KDE is a commercial project", and being accused of slander, and
> spending more time than any human should ever spend in the particular
> pursuit defending having called a company by the name of the product it
> sells, that it would perhaps be somewhat appropriate, in fact, to inform
> me that 'Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project, is a TrollTech
> employee.'
Why? That's someting between him and them. And it's no secret.
[snip iterations of the same]
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:10:50 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
>
> Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:27:48 -0400, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
> > Here's a tip, Max. If you don't know, ask. Do not "tell" until you
> > do know.
> >
> > >you know, just casually _mentioned_, "Yea, sure Max, when you ask 'what
> > >is the relationship between TT and KDE', the correct answer would be
> > >'Well, Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project, is a TrollTech
> > >employee.'"
> >
> > No, it is not the correct answer. It is a misleading answer, because
> > it creates the false impression that Ettrich was a member of TT before
> > he founded KDE.
> >
> > The relationship, past, present, and future, between TT and the KDE
> > project has been that KDE are a user of TT's main product, and indeed,
> > that TT's product is a vital component of KDE.
>
> OK, I will ask this of everyone familiar with the KDE project:
>
> We know that one connection between Trolltech and the KDE project is that
> KDE uses Qt.
>
> We now also know that Matthias is both the founder of the KDE project and an
> employee of Trolltech.
>
> In addition to that are there or have there been any other connections or
> relationships between the KDE project and Trolltech, either directly or
> indirectly? If so, what are they?
They give us some network services (DNS, and maybe they host something).
We have signed a few legal documents between KDE e.V. and TT, which
are related to the KDE Free Qt foundation.
TT hired a few KDE guys, starting a couple of years ago.
Many of us consider some guy at TT a friend, and (I assume)
viceversa.
I can't think of anything else right now.
--
Robreto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:16:58 -0300
"T. Max Devlin" escribió:
>
> Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >"T. Max Devlin" escribió:
> >>
> >> Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 1 Sep 2000 20:57:44 GMT, Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:27:41 -0400, T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>Sort of like your criticism, you mean? Again, I ask who I might have
> >> >> >>"defamed"? KDE, by calling it a commercial enterprise?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Yep.
> >> >>
> >> >> Considering how little trouble they have building their project on a
> >> >> commercial enterprise, this is highly disputable.
> >> >
> >> >If you build a house out of wood, the house is a tree?
> >>
> >> If your house is a tree, your house is made out of wood.
> >
> >You seem to have missed the terms of the analogy completely.
>
> No, but I figured you'd say that. I rejected your analogy, true, and
> replaced it with one I though appropriate. But mine, I'll admit, was
> only appropriate *as an analogy to your analogy*.
>
> Cute, huh?
No, rather stupid in fact.
> Note to Roberto: KDE *was* a commercial enterprise; Troll Tech made it
> so when they hired Matthias, if Matthias didn't think it was when he
> founded KDE on QT to begin with. Now its not anymore. Cheers. ;-)
The depth of nonsense contained in this paragraph approaches
that of some of the deepest abysses of the pacific ocean.
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
------------------------------
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