Linux-Advocacy Digest #644, Volume #29 Fri, 13 Oct 00 22:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Convince me to run Linux? (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Dave Bethke")
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From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Convince me to run Linux?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 01:50:20 GMT
In article <8s88og$6mr$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Hung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If Win ME satisfies your needs, stick with it.
> Only you yourself can convince yourself whether you nee Linux.
> We are not Linux salesman here. Heh heh.
Very true. For some people, all they expect from their computer is
a really fancy game machine and a web browser. They don't even care
that the web browser is sending personal information about them to
pretty much anyone who asks, with little concern for the privacy of
the user. After all, It's Microsoft's operating system, Microsoft's
browser, Microsoft's drivers, and usually Microsoft's server (that
extracts this interesting information). All you really own is the
hardware, and without Microsoft's operating system and applications
all you'd have is some blinking lights.
> "Linux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I really do want to run Linux but I can't find
> > any viable reason to
> > switch from Windows ME to Linux?
Maybe you don't really want to change. Again, if all you really want
is something like a play station with a Web Browser and Works
productivity package (not really an office suite), you might not
really want to deal with the hassle of trying to add Linux.
> > My Dell comes with Windows ME installed
> > as well as internet access and
> > all of the programs, including Quicken,
Yes, Quicken is a nice package. Did you know that there is a
comparable package written for Linux (imports QNF files into a
checkbook), and there are investor tools that are only available
for Windows at a price of nearly $2000 per user?
> > encyclopedias
Sorry, no encyclopedias with Linux. If the encyclopedia is
in HTML/Web format, you may be able to mount it as a subdirectory
to you Apache web server (included with ALL versions of Linux).
> > and children's
> > scholastic program's
This one is even trickier. You'll probably need to leave Windows ME
on the system for this package, unless of course it will run under
wine (most 3rd party software does, most Microsoft software doesn't).
Linux/WINE can emulate Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and Windows NT. It
isn't always perfect, and set-up takes some time, but it's not too bad.
> > all pre installed.
Yes. Unfortunately, you didn't have the option of also having
Linux preinstalled as well. It only adds about $5 to the
production cost, and only adds about $100 to the price tag,
but Microsoft has a little fit (actually a BIG fit) if anyone
tampers with the "boot sequence". As a result, you don't even
have the option of having BOTH preinstalled.
Just curious, did you have the option of having Linux preinstalled?
I mean, when you went to the drop-down menu to select whether you
wanted, Windows 98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, or Windows ME, did
it also give you the option of Red Hat Linux, Caldera Linux,
or SuSE Linux?
> > Why should I switch to Linux?
You might not want to Switch. You don't have to give up Microsoft
Windows capabilities to run Linux. You can install both!
Now the question
> > I asked Dell about Linux when I
> > placed my order, about 2 weeks ago,
> > and they laughed saying that 99 percent
> > of the Linux pre-loads they
> > shipped come back with the customers
> > asking for the Windows pre-load
> > instead.
They shouldn't have made such a statement. It's defamatory to the
Linux distributors being installed and damages the brand. If you
were asking tentatively and more "out of curiousity", they probably
figured you didn't know enough about Linux to really want it.
There are some definite advantages to having Linux preinstalled. But
many of the Dell Machines have been specifically designed to support
an easy installation of Linux. If the price was the same for both
boxes, many people simply assume that they will get more value from
the Windows machine (because it costs more).
It's fine. You might want to install something like "Linux for
Windows" from Mandrake, or install Mandrake deluxe. Mandrake bills
itself as the "Best version of Linux for Beginners", and I'd agree.
Caldera is also very friendly, but Mandrake gives the user more of
the goodies and toys without forcincg configuration of everything
immediately.
> > According to them, it is just a matter
> > of them exchanging the hard disk?
That's correct. Dell keeps about 48 hours worth of both disks
in inventory (much fewer Linux disks, but enough to meet the demand).
Either disk can be cloned quite trivially.
Some other questions may help. Do you already have a PC? Is it
already running Windows 9x? If so, you might want to just keep the
old machine around for the really fussy applications, and order Linux
on the new machine. This gives you the best of both worlds.
Since you are a beginner, you'll have a much more pleasant experience
with Mandrake or SuSE Linux if it's Preinstalled than if you try to
install it yourself. As many on this list can testify, one of the
hardest barriers to really getting value from Linux is trying to
figure out all those settings and configurations. If you let Dell
do it, there's a pretty good chance that everything, including the
sound, video, modem, and network will work. This definitely makes
getting familiar with that first Linux system more pleasant.
If you really decide you hate Linux rabidly, you can pretty easily
order a Windows CD and install it yourself. Keep in mind, with
Windows, reinstalling software is the norm, so you haven't really
lost that much.
> > I have not committed to my order yet,
> > but I am having second thoughts?
> >
> > What viable reasons are there for going with Linux?
Again. You already know Windows 9x, and Windows ME isn't significantly
more, or better. If you really need a video studio, you can create one
using Linux, or you can install Windows later. The other good thing is
that Linux is really easy to back-up and restore.
So now, what could you gain by adding Linux?
New programs. Linux distributions include thousands of complimentary
programs. Some of these are as good or even better that commercial
software available for Windows. In some cases, you can also purchase
upgrades to included complimentary software that adds new features.
You can either download it off the web and purchase an enablement key,
or you can have it shipped to you, along with the key.
New paradigms. With Linux you have whole new capabilities. The web
server and other servers are simply part of the Linux package. Many
programs simply used the web browser as the user interface.
New features. Linux has new features that you may have never seen
under Windows 95, 98, or ME. For example, you can have multiple
desktops and switch between them. This is great if you're needing
to jump from one application to another and you want to get back
to what you were doing as soon as you've dealt with the interruption
(phone call, question from the boss). With VNC, you can even have
one of the desktops running an application that puts your Windows
screen on one of your Linux desktops. That way you don't have
to fight for desktop space.
A rapidly evolving system. Unlike Windows, where Revolutionary
new releases render all previous versions obsolete, and the
service packs that often damage more of the old software than
it fixes, Linux is very much designed to be Evolutionary.
There are upgrades, and the cost of implementing the upgrade
is often less than the cost of upgrading Microsoft Works.
Furthermore, the upgrades are generally capable of using your
existing configuration settings, most of which are easily saved
because they are simple text files that can simply be copied to
the adminitstrator's home directory (/home/etc and /home/usr/etc).
If you get in trouble, it's usually easier to get support as well.
You may have to pay a bit for it, but you can have someone fix
your computer by "remote control". This feature is available in
the most expensive Windows NT and Windows 2000 servers (SMS), and
costs about $100 for PC-Anywhere, but with Linux, it's designed into
the operating system.
And if you have and ambitions about putting up your own web site,
Linux makes the entire operation trivial. You can actually set up
connections that allow you to "mirror" information from your computer
to your web server. You control what gets mirrored, but the mirroring
can be done automatically if you like.
If you want to know anything about how the computer works, or
how certain applications work, most Linux programs come with
source code. This makes it possible to add special features
that you want, or you can hire someone to add them for you.
For corporate users, the cost of custom software is dramatically
reduced because new functionality can be added using simple,
compact, reliable modules. It's a bit like Tinker-Toys.
The programs are like the little disks, and pipelines or
streams are like the little sticks. Even if you don't want
to do these things, there are many people doing it for you, and
you'll get the benefits in future releases.
And as for your children, (I assume that your interest in sholastic
and encyclopedia is because you have them), Linux is a very easy way
to give them the tools they will need to be powerful in the 21st
century. I had my kids playing Tic Tac Toe as soon as they were
old enough to hold the joystick (about 3). By the time they were
5, they were playing keyboard games and writing little programs
in BASIC. Today, my son is looking at becoming a Nuclear Engineer.
Linux gives you the "glossy-pretty" tools and toys, similar to those
available in Windows. At the same time, it gives kids the ability
to find out "how does it work"? By giving them a number of languages
which they can use to program the computer. Many of these languages
are used to support hundreds of complimentary programs which have
numerous practical purposes.
> > Izzy
So Izzy, It's your move. You can buy that new Windows ME box,
try to find some charity that will take that old Pentium 100,
and maybe they'll put Linux on it and give it to some kid in
living in a housing project. That would be a good an noble
thing to do, and I'd respect you for it. Or, you can buy
that new Linux box, keep the old PC for now, and when you're
comfortable with Linux enough to let Windows 95 go, you can
convert it to Linux yourself and give it to some kid you
know, who really needs it.
Who knows, maybe you'll alternate, buying Linux this year and
Windows 2000 SE later next year.
Whichever choice you make will have consequences. If you stick
with the old familiar, you won't have to learn anything new,
neither will your children. If you step into this new and
unfamiliar world, you will be uncomfortable at times. You might
even regret your decision at first, but as you learn and explore,
a whole new world will open up before you.
It's your choice. Enjoy it.
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 50 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:02:20 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:vQxF5.888
>> > Not exactly. It means that MS apps would have to test what version (and
>> > sometimes what build) they're running on. Then they would have to test
>> for
>> > the existence (and/or the specific behavior) of the function in
>question.
>> > If nothing has changed, proceed as before. If the function is gone (or
>> > different), work around it. Pretty simple stuff, of course.
>>
>> Well that would imply that MS had thought out using undocumented apis
>> with the mind towards changing them to screw people later... I don't
>> know what I think of that idea...
>
>It always amuses me how people can say "MS doesn't know squat about
>designing operating systems and everything they create is junk" out of one
>side of their mouth,
Nobody ever said everything they create is junk because they don't know
squat about designing operating systems. I said its junk because its
monopoly crapware, which only has to be good enough to keep people
locked in until the next version, and is therefore more profitable to
Microsoft the less functional it gets. But I don't know about D'Arcy.
>but out of the other side they say "MS uses unfair
>tactics, like being prescient enough to know which undocumented API's a
>competitor will use in the future, make them attractive to use, then when
>they use them, pull the rug out from under them, all while not breaking our
>apps".
>
>It's like they can't decide whether MS is incompetant or omnipotent.
Gee, maybe they just change them after someone already starts using
them. You ever think of that, bright boy? Other WinTrolls have already
loudly proclaimed that any developer has to deal with some level of
undefined behavior. Well, any developer that MS doesn't like can easily
find that this undefined behavior has mysteriously changed after the new
OS, IE, or Office 'upgrade' or service pack. And you would demand its
never happened, I'm sure, but that's what makes you an incompetent boob.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:05:19 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said John Lockwood in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:40:50 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>>I'm not concerned about how well it functions in spite of its flaws.
>>I'm wondering why, if it supposedly "so good" that it is on 90% of all
>>PCs, and supposedly "so good" that it provides technology available
>>no-where else, it is full of flaws. How could something have such a
>>large number of flaws and yet be the most successful product? I find it
>>neither glib nor highly motivated to dismiss Microsoft as a criminal
>>organization, as they've provided more than ample evidence in their
>>internal correspondence that they base their development not on 'how to
>>improve the product', but rather 'how to prevent competition'. If you
>>can't understand why the result of such a strategy can generally be
>>called 'crap', that's not my problem.
>
>It's not a question of understanding it, but thanks for the ad
>hominem.
Well, I'm sorry you were clueless enough to invite it.
>It's a question of it being descriptive but not especially
>interesting. You hate microsoft, whether I have it backward or not,
>and whether it's glib or highly motivated or not. All of that's well
>and good.
You are entirely wrong. It is backward and glib and highly motivated,
and entirely changes the truth of the context of your statement. You
act like I'm trying to come up with excuses to hate Microsoft; I don't
even want to *care* about Microsoft. They certainly aren't worth any
seething anger or anything, though fools who defend them do, obviously,
tend to piss me off.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:07:52 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said James A. Robertson in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
>> >How did you "conclude" this? If the WINE programmers can't get these (very
>> >NON-rudimentary) things to work correctly then I think they have not done their
>homework.
>> >Feel free to have them mail me. I can explain the splendid logic of the WndClass.
>>
>> They are only rudimentary for Microsoft; they are arbitrary to everyone
>> else. Obviously, MS didn't do them it in a very understandable,
>> efficient, or even explicable fashion, if professional developers
>> attempting to duplicate the behavior find it impossible. You can
>> explain the 'splendid logic' of the WndClass, but you can't clone it,
>> can you?
>>
>
>Wait a second here - are you trying to say thatan arbitrarily complex
>library ought to be easily emulated with only the public api available?
I don't understand why you throw the term 'easily' in there so casually.
It certainly should be popular, and considering it would be worth
billions of dollars if Microsoft weren't acting anti-competitively and
preventing competition, there's no reason why Windows wouldn't have been
cloned, if it were a technical issue.
>Good gravy, do you even write software for a living? If so, how can you
>believe this?
Because I know that it has little to do with writing software for a
living, and a lot to do with hiring programmers to write software for a
living.
>The win32 API seems to have little in common with the X Windows system,
>thus making any emulation that much more difficult.
Oh, I'm sure. Every little bit helps, when you're trying to prevent
competition.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
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------------------------------
From: "Dave Bethke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:06:48 GMT
Mark McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> GET THIS OUT OF COMP.LANG.C its utterly nontopical....
>
And out of alt.conspiracy.area51, unless, of course you're claiming that
W2K was written by a bunch of gray aliens in their secret facility 40
stories underground in the middle of the Nevada desert. :)
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