Linux-Advocacy Digest #645, Volume #29 Sat, 14 Oct 00 00:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Need expert for info on troubleshooting Linux ("Vann")
Claire Lynn ("Vann")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (John Lockwood)
Re: Convince me to run Linux? (Black Dragon)
Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux ("Mike")
Re: Astroturfing (mlw)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (John Lockwood)
Re: The Power of the Future! (Bob Hauck)
Re: Claire Lynn (mlw)
Re: Claire Lynn (elmig)
Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux ("Ingemar Lundin")
Linus interview (elmig)
Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux (Chris Sherlock)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Need expert for info on troubleshooting Linux
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:07:47 GMT
Out of curiousity, why do you think everyone's needs are the same for a
desktop? I'm not trying to speak for anyone I've never met or know
personally, but I think what you are saying, about linux not being a
desktop alternative, isn't true for every single person on the Earth. An
example would be my father. He never saw a computer before 1996, let
alone used one. After using that computer for a year or so, I decided to
install linux and see if he liked it. Yes, I set it up, and yes, I tell
him how to change things if he wants them changed. The point is, however,
that, after I set up this linux box for him, he not only constantly talked
about how much better linux looked, but also how much less intrusive it
was. Personally, I feel once there is an easier way to configure linux
that it will be at least as friendly as Windows to neophyte computer
users. I just don't see how you can talk everyone who uses a computer.
( If anyone is curious, I had modifed a Linux mandrake 7.0 setup with
XFree86 4.01, nvidia drivers, and used the Blackbox window manager. )
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Linux in and of itself is an experiment in progress fostered on the
> public. It is a semi-ready for prime time pile of junk masquerading as
> an alternative to Windows and nothing could be farther from the truth.
>
> If you're a geek running a server farm go and try it. If you are looking
> for a desktop alternative to Windows, look elsewhere (Mac would be a
> good choice).
>
> claire
<snip other posts>
------------------------------
From: "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Claire Lynn
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:15:46 GMT
I've been lurking around this group for a few weeks now, and I've noticed
a large volume of posts being made by Claire Lynn. I don't have anything
against Claire, per se, but, what doesn't make any sense to me is why
Claire posts at a linux advocacy group. ( Note: I do understand what a
troll is, but Claire seems to be doing more than mindlessly trolling. )
Anyways, shouldn't Claire being doing something more productive with her
time? I mean, honestly, what, if Microsoft is so much better, is the
point of coming to COLA and posting constantly? Won't the "invisible
hand" of capitalism take care of linux, if it is, in fact, so horrid? Or
was Adam Smith a buffoon?
Just my two cents.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:29:35 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Mark McIntyre in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:01:41 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
><babbly>
>
>GET THIS OUT OF COMP.LANG.C its utterly nontopical....
I'm sorry, I don't show comp.lang.c on the newsgroups line. Perhaps you
mean comp.lang.java.advocacy?
Followups set to adm (which isn't in the groups list, either, but its
where I feel most free to babble.
Sorry for any confusion. Thanks.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: John Lockwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:32:08 -0700
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:05:19 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>It's not a question of understanding it, but thanks for the ad
>>hominem.
>
>Well, I'm sorry you were clueless enough to invite it.
You just keep going being your charming self, but I'm going over
here....
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Black Dragon)
Subject: Re: Convince me to run Linux?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:32:20 GMT
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:50:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> `Linux' said:
>Izzy
Interesteing -- both clair_lynn and Izzy here use the same, identical, news
clients, and both are posting from NYC. naw -- couldn't be, could it?
--
Black Dragon
------------------------------
From: "Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 21:53:01 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here is a post from the firewall group. I have erased the names to
> protect the innocent.
>
Big snip<>
You really are a silly person. I'd wager that 99% of the people reading
this newsgroup have more experience with Dos/Windows than you. It really
is kind of dumb for you to blather on about how great "Windows" is to
them.
They have also learned to use Unix/Linux and find that it
meets their needs better than the afore mentioned operating system.
You however, cannot make an intelligent assessment of what the pros and
cons of each are because you know nothing of Unix/Linux.
I wonder where you got the idea that Linux is for everyone. It isn't. If
you cannot or will not read, Linux is most definately not for you.
If you can read and don't mind doing so, you might find even with its
shortcomings, Linux is far preferable than Dos/Windows.
Windows has its place and has enabled the lowest comon denominator in our
society to run powerful applications run on sophisticated computers. Does
that mean it is a superior operating system? No.
Learn to use Linux and only use Linux for a year or two.
Then your judgements, opinions, and comparisons between Windows and Linux
will have more weight.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:50:42 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> And collectively have YET to provide one single shred of evidence that
> specifically relates to this group..
>
> claire
>
> On 13 Oct 2000 22:45:05 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) wrote:
>
> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> Prove it..
> >
> >Dejanews, moron. That is, if you can figure out how to use it.
> >
> >We've been over this whole thing a dozen times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980421S0020
http://linuxtoday.com/stories/10912_flat.html
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: John Lockwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:56:53 -0700
On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 01:48:13 GMT, "Les Mikesell"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How about this scenario: initial versions of MS software used
>undocumented API's that were later moved into DLL's that are
>supplied by the app(s) that need them? How else do you get
>from a situation where IE isn't even included as part of the OS
>to one where they can claim it is an essential part? Why else
>would MS apps update the system DLL's?
>
I've had no end of problems with IComCategories (I believe that was
the interface name) as a result of this. As I traced what was
happening in OLE32, comat.dll and others, clearly what Microsoft had
afoot was smushing IE into the OS, and it made one of the bigger
messes they've made as a result.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:43:56 GMT
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:21:35 GMT, Mike Byrns
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> MS would not let a kook like you near any corporate site and give
>> details on the usenet.
>Drestin has been much better behaved in recent posts. Kook is an ad
>hominem attack on his credibility.
Yes, it was ad hominem, but "Drestin" has a long history of posting in
comp.os.linux.advocacy. He much predates your posting here, so you
have seen only the most recent "Drestin" posts. A number of long
timers have a history with "Drestin".
Just thought you should know that.
>execs are happy. The fact that there have been fewer reports of Hotmail
>outages since the initial BSD to 2000 migration is telling. I can't
>think of one report since. Please post a rebuttal to this.
I do believe that your fellow Winvocate "clair_lynn" aka "Steve" posted
such a report here just days ago. I think it is too early to tell in
any case, as they had years of history with FreeBSD but only a month
with W2K, and we don't know what changes were made to the hardware. It
is a bit early to proclaim victory.
>I disagree. I think it's indicative of the iterative improvements in
>driver maturity across the board. ISVs have had the time to see that
>Windows 2000 is mandating driver support on the desktop and further up.
I can't parse that. What does "mandating driver support on the desktop
and further up" mean? It would seem that driver support for Windows
has always been mandated if you want to sell PC hardware.
>A decade of Windows, UNIX and Netware experience has lead me to cost in
>the long term. UNIX is expensive initially and in the forecast. Since
And high-end quad-Xeon W2K servers with W2K Data Center and a couple
thousand CALs are cheap? NT admins seem to be getting more expensive
as well.
The big problem with the "Windows is cheaper" argument is that the
trends are wrong. Microsoft solutions are getting more expensive,
while Unix solutions are getting less expensive. Who wants to tie
themselves to a proprietary vendor that is under pressure to maintain
revenue growth?
The traditional advantage of MS has been lower hardware costs, and a
competitive market that prevents a vendor from sticking it to you on
support. But now you can deploy Unix on commodity hardware too. MS is
reduced to arguing vague cost-of-ownership issues and trying to
generate FUD that low-cost Linux solutions are somehow "not
professional".
>we have moved to NT for the prototype and development environments our
>ability to react to the market has changed dramatically. We can develop
>close to systems without the need for UNIX admins to do things for us.
This just dosen't add up. You replace Unix with NT. A properly set
up NT server doesn't allow just anyone to change the configuration. So
now you have to ask an NT admin to do things instead of a Unix admin.
I am not seeing much of a difference here.
Unless all developers are admins, which is just as dumb on NT as it is
on Unix.
>Our costs now center around deployment issues -- issues that would be
>moot if our deploy platform were the same as our dev platform. Even
Yes, you could develop on Linux and deploy on Linux. Or on FreeBSD or
on Solaris, with very little extra effort. Once again you compare W2K
to proprietary Unix on proprietary hardware and leave out the other
solutions.
>less if we were to start using superior Windows DNA or .Net in
>development instead of Java servlets, Apache and WebSphere.
Here you compare actual shipping solutions to .NET, which is such vapor
that Steve Ballmer himself can't explain what the hell it is. How do
you know that .NET will be superior, when it isn't even a product yet?
>business is starting to ask why the QA team is finding more defects late
>in the process and we have to answer that it's due to "UNIX issues".
What issues? Or is that just buzzword-speak that furthers your career
agenda?
>They that are running Windows 2000 on their laptops without a reboot for
>months are beginning to question how the web boxes need to be bounced
>for seemingly simple maintenance issues.
So you have NT4 on the web boxes? I'm not aware of any need to bounce
Unix servers for "simple maintenance issues". OTOH, NT4 makes you
reboot to install most software. W2K is better, I hear, but that's not
what most MS sites are running today.
>> See the problem for MS is the advocates
>> and little guys living in the MS-NT ecology so overstate windows that
>> MS's customers are growing impatient.
>
>How so?
Like comparing shipping solutions to MS promises.
>> I bet most of the CIO's who
>> like windows want the childish hype to stop as much as I do.
>
>Especially the childish Linux hype.
No, the childish MS hype. The hype where MS claims that whatever
product they have is perfect for whatever it is you need, regardless of
whether that's true or not.
For example, back in 1995, I was running an ISP. MS told me that
NT4 + IIS would do the job for web serving. They tried really hard to
get me to switch. It was, in fact, quite substandard compared to a
Unix solution and lots of ISP's who were around at the time and tried
the MS solution will tell you that. Now, everyone including Winvocates
seems to agree that NT4 pre-SP5 was not quite up to the job after all.
Nice of them to say that after pushing that very solution for years.
Why should anyone listen to them now?
>> So. Yeah, W2K isn't NT 3.5. Not being NT 3,5 doesn't mean W2K is a
>> reliable and proven OS. In fact, the comment shows me how little you
>> care about reliability.
>
>Windows 2000 has been measured to be 10 times more reliable on the
>desktop and moreso on the server than NT.
Well, maybe they are finally getting close then. But, then, it does
seem that we've heard it all before too.
>Thus the market growth.
Independent sources are not showing market growth being caused by W2K.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:04:23 -0400
Vann wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around this group for a few weeks now, and I've noticed
> a large volume of posts being made by Claire Lynn. I don't have anything
> against Claire, per se, but, what doesn't make any sense to me is why
> Claire posts at a linux advocacy group. ( Note: I do understand what a
> troll is, but Claire seems to be doing more than mindlessly trolling. )
> Anyways, shouldn't Claire being doing something more productive with her
> time? I mean, honestly, what, if Microsoft is so much better, is the
> point of coming to COLA and posting constantly? Won't the "invisible
> hand" of capitalism take care of linux, if it is, in fact, so horrid? Or
> was Adam Smith a buffoon?
>
> Just my two cents.
What is not clear to the casual viewer is that "Clair" is an alter ego
of another poster. I leave it in the capable hands of the curious to
discover whom.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (elmig)
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: 14 Oct 2000 03:03:54 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Vann) wrote in
<mlPF5.696$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>against
She you say? right...
elmig
http://www.alunos.ipb.pt/~ee3931
------------------------------
From: "Ingemar Lundin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 03:11:08 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
news:8s7vnn$bqq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Here is a post from the firewall group. I have erased the names to
> > protect the innocent.
>
> <snip>
>
> > claire
>
> Saw that you left your own name in there, though. You know, if you quit
> being such a whore for the great corporations out there, it might go a
> long way to curing your guilty conscience...
>
> Just a thought. You know, in case you needed a classic example of
> unfriendly Linux users, too.
>
that wasnt nice!
/IL
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (elmig)
Subject: Linus interview
Date: 14 Oct 2000 03:12:13 GMT
One month or to ago linus giva an interview (on some expo) and he
admited linux was years ago from windows (for the average joe and jane). So
why so many crap on cola?
Interview available on slashdot (find yourself! :p )
I still (and mainly) use linux but some tasks like image retouching (or layng
championship manger :) ) i rather do it in windows. Don't give methe gimp
crap...
So why all this fuss? Choose what you want and let the others be. don't flame
A or B just because they say i use NT and i use Linux...
just my 2 cents,
elmig
http://www.alunos.ipb.pt/~ee3931
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:18:22 +1000
From: Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux
goto's are only used when necessary in the kernel. How do you know that
other kernel's don't use gotos?
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:23:34 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> 1. You didn't address the point.
> >
> >Your point boiled down to something ridiculous like Linux users need to
> >spend hours with emacs to get their firewall going. I gave it about as
> >much attention as it deserved. Perhaps too much.
>
> No. My point boiled down to questions that are asked, ad nauseam in
> the firewall groups. Maybe you gave your firewall equal consideration.
> What was your IP address again ?
>
> >> 2. You use vulgar language to make yourself feel good.
> >
> >Well, it was just one word. By USENET standards, that's pretty polite.
> >But I'll tame it down a little if you can't take it, you ninny.
>
> You're the ninny around here. You have yet to address the point. Is
> that too much to ask?
>
> >> 3. Please stop insulting me.
> >
> >Only when you stop insulting everyone else's intelligence here.
>
> I'm talking about you, not everyone else around here. Do you need help
> to make your point? Evidently intelligence does not apply when
> debating you because you have yet to make a single solid point. You
> aren't even that good at insulting others intelligence
>
> >> 4. Address the topic, if indeed you can.
> >
> >See #1, above.
>
> And you STILL have not addressed the subject.
> Circular reasoning seems to be common around Linux advocates. Must be
> all of those GoTo's in the kernel source :)
>
> >> 5. You are doing Linux more harm than you realize. But go ahead and be
> >> my guest.
> >
> >Wait a sec... Does this mean I can continue to insult you? It seems #5
> >cannot coexist with #3 on the above list. I'm impressed -- usually it
> >takes a big long post in order for the wintrolls show off their
> >inability to grasp basic logic. You must be amongst the best and the
> >brightest.
>
> You are the one without ANY sense of logic. You still have not
> addressed the point of the thread.
>
> If you want to throw insults that's fine, but I suspect it won't be
> long before the Linvocates ask you to stop "helping" them.
>
> >> Idiot, that you are.
> >
> >Whatever. Twit.
>
> You should know...
> claire
>
> >-ws
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
