Linux-Advocacy Digest #676, Volume #29 Sun, 15 Oct 00 18:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Legal issues - Re: Linux DVD player! (Andres Soolo)
Re: Claire Lynn ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Astroturfing (Perry Pip)
Re: Astroturfing (Perry Pip)
Re: Astroturfing (Andres Soolo)
Re: Suggestions for Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Astroturfing (Andres Soolo)
Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (jazz)
Re: Astroturfing ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Convince me to run Linux?
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Matt Kennel)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Matt Kennel)
Re: Claire Lynn
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Larry Ebbitt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Legal issues - Re: Linux DVD player!
Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:16:27 GMT
R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyone who obtains a copy of a copyrighted product
> is subject to the terms of the license of that copyright.
Which license, exactly?
The contract-style license, where the parties agree to something,
can, AFAIK, only take place in an offer/accept way. When
something is mailed to you, you can't effectively refuse to accept
the mailing, so it would seem to me that the mere action of receiving
a package in the mail can't bind a person to a contract.
On the other hand, the obtaining doesn't give the obtainer much
rights to the content by itself too, but that's a requirement of
the copyright law and isn't product-specific.
> Microsoft's contention is that, unless intellectual properties are
> so completely protected that a total monopoly is available and can
> be extended to other products, and even other industries, that
> people will stop writing software, writing books, covering the news,
> making movies, and even stop all creativity and innovation althogether.
> This was, in essence, the driving thought behind the digital millenium
> act.
Sounds like they're trying Labour Union Racket. :-)
> (Broadcast Music International), and/or the RIAA (Recording Industry
> Artists Association?) can be paid a fixed monthly fee which can be
Recording Industry Association of America, I guess.
[snip]
Now back to the original point of my post:
>> If the original purchaser, what happens
>> if a company purchases a bunch of DVDs
>> (thus becoming the licensee) and
>> spams them out to a few thousand people,
> The original purchaser would be a licensee. Furthermore, they
> would be subject to the "public performance" license terms of
> the copyright (since they are publishing to "a few thousand people".
It's pretty nice that far. But then, the few thousand people would
be not bound by the terms of the license, so they should have all
fair use rights to convert what they've got to other formats--i. e.
the whole point of licensing the media as such falls apart.
>> who, therefore, get the media
>> as gift--with no license restrictions?
> The recipients would be subject to the "private use" license.
Back to the start of this post. What binds them to that license?
> Essentially, they would agree to have their player send a record
> of each time the recording was played.
I'm sure my CD-player, which happens to be fully legal, doesn't do
that, no matter which CD it plays. It seems that the private use
law doesn't require that. Why would it require that for DVDs?
> Furthermore, the recipients would be restricted from republishing
> for "public performance" without obtaining a "public performance"
> license.
Yes, but this not a license restriction but required by the copyright
law (which usually is influenced by the recording companies), so
it would be so even when the recipients would have bought their
copies from a shop.
> The copyright acts were revised starting in 1976 to provide
> the relationship between the copyright and the licensing
> of specific rights. Through a combination of international
> cooperation and international treaties, these rights and
> licenses are generally accepted and enforced world-wide.
How much of the specific rights are customizable by the
licenser?
Thanks for explaining much of the copyright system, but it didn't
still fully answer my question. I was speculation on of which base
does the DVD CCA have to restrict format conversions of a content
item.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Man is by nature a political animal.
-- Aristotle
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:29:18 GMT
I also don't live in a country that is falling apart.
claire
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:36:41 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias
Warkus) wrote:
>It was the Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:59:12 GMT...
>...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Whatever.
>>
>> Most of the Linvocates in this group can't advocate their collective
>> ass's out of a paper bag.
>
>Fascinating. You obviously wouldn't know the difference between a
>plural form and a genitive case if they both bit your arse in turn,
>but still you're trying to make a point.
>
>I just plain love that.
>
>mawa
------------------------------
From: Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:23:22 GMT
In article <39e7dc20$0$42761$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > What's wrong with Windows 2000?
> >
> > Stabilty.
>
> There are no issues of stability with W2K. None. W2k is every bit as
stable
> as any other OS.
ROFLOL!! In your wet dreams.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:24:55 GMT
In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering student
who had
> > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old sysadmin
in
> boston.
>
> amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
>
In your wet dreams, Dristan.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:31:42 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Boris Dynin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So given that there must be astroturfers here how would we spot them?
>> - Not having a real job to go to they make lots of posts.
So are many students. :-)
>> - They are technically competent on MS stuff (not wizards, but
>> competent).
Apparently, they'd better be.
>> - They use the standard bullet-points and marketing buzzwords that look
>> a bit out of place in an informal Usenet post, so that they read like
>> advertising copy. (like "Advantages to the business", and "Fortune
>> 500")
Uh, why? That would give them away. I'm sure MS can hire better PR men.
>> - Talks up Windows 2000 a lot (because it's the latest upgrade and MS
>> lives on upgrades)
Not necessarily. If I were MS, I wouldn't hire astroturfers of all jacks.
It would be very suspicious. A better way would be to have some people
to advocate MSW2K, some to beat OS/2 etc. Sometimes they might even
fight a little on MSW95 vs MSWNT.
>> - Defends MS when anyone says "anti-trust".
Sure. There are never too many of such people. :)
>> - Has a slightly salesman feel about them.
Probably. They ARE salesmen, after all.
>> - Doesn't directly attack Linux, but makes sly comments like ("great for
>> mom-and-pop operations cutting costs")
You're meaning FUD? Certainly. The astroturfers are just right for that.
>> Any others?
Since it would not look good for one person to write hundreds of
messages a day, a paid astroturfer would have quite a few
different identities. Preferably in different states.
If done really good, the astroturfers would not sit in just one or two
newsgroups but troll the others too, beating the black woman's right
for abortion for example. Because, when a regular usenetter happens to
catch that, his brain does `click! that's just another ten-year old
trolling' and he probably won't take much time to think of the possible
ramifications. Which is exactly what the astroturfers want.
And, of course, one of the missions of astroturfers is hide their presence.
Expect extensive flaming :-)
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
When a Banker jumps out of a window, jump after him -- that's where the
money is.
-- Robespierre
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:35:16 GMT
Here we have the typical, asshole, linvocate response below
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:41:36 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias
Warkus) wrote:
>It was the Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:15:48 -0400...
>...and unicat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 1) We need to kill off the "Cult of UNIX" mentality.
>> There are too many Linux advocates who are old-line UNIX
>> gurus, who believe in the "users should have to earn the right to
>> use a computer" ethic.
>
>This attitude is in reality not related to Unix in any way?
Typical playing dumb Linvocate technique.
Or maybe he is not playing?
Hey Matt, have you FINALLY gotten the help files for kde written yet?
Wake up and smell the tea.
>> 2) We need to completely eliminate the command line interface.
>> That's right. Get rid of it.
>
>Why?
Time wasting Linvoacte technique. The guy already explained that 5
times.
>> 3) We need to add superior functionality to the Linux GUI, like
>> the "Halflife" game, with openGL and 3-D icons for linux functions-
>
>Bzzt, you lost. There is no "the Linux GUI".
Linvocate technique of word diseecting because he really doesn't have
anything to say.
>> a) A restaurant. F'rinstance, you boot linux, and you see a first
>> person view of yourself walking into a restaurant. You sit at a
>> table,
>> and tux the penguin walks over and hands you a menu. The menu has
>> linux programs grouped on pages with clickaable tabs. You click a
>> tab for
>> say, graphics, and a page turns to all the graphics programs . You
>> click
>> on a menu selection to start up the corresponding function.
>
>Reminds me of crappy things such as the Packard Bell Navigator.
Or Linuxconf.
>> b) An office building. You find yourself walking down a hallway,
>> each door leads to either a room or another hallway. Rooms are
>> directories with representational 3-D icons for files (like a TV
>> for viewing
>> animations, or a filing cabinet full of documents, each of which is
>>
>> a spearate manilla folder). Hallways are directories of
>> directories.
>> We could produce a tool like a .wad file editor to allow users to
>> customize the 3-D environment.
>
>Reminds me even more of the crappy Packard Bell Navigator (especially
>the thing about manila folders.)
Translation he would rather the end user suffer with config files and
mis-spellings that render the system useless.
>> b) Always warn the user about doing stupid things, like when they
>> enter
>> * and .txt as spearate files to be removed, when they meant *.txt
>
>This idea is actually good.
So use it. Only after you get some decent help in kde though.
>> c) Never ever ever ask the user to provide the same information twice
>> -
>> keep everything they ever tell you in a KEYWORD=value file.
>> standardize
>> the use of keywords, and always check this file before asking the
>> user for some fact.
>
>Not bad, yet hard to implement.
I'm not a geek so I wouldn't know.
>> d) Run a background process once an hour to check the integrity and
>> consistency
>> of all configuration files - and fix them so they work.
>
>Even better, yet even harder to implement.
See above.
>mawa
Write those help files. I'm sick of getting "This hasn't been written
yet" messages in kde. Piss poor...
claire
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:35:07 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Linux sinks like a lead balloon under it's own weight. It's sinking
> faster than the Titanic all on it's own. Sure as hell doesn't need any
> help from me.
As much as I know, Titanic was in the bottom of ocean in a few weeks
after the start of its first mission-critical application. Linux is
not reached even the submarines yet--at least not publicly ...
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Once harm has been done, even a fool understands it.
-- Homer
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (jazz)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:23:44 -0400
I really need a powerful word processor with templates, styles, etc.
What is available for Linux? How about for Powerpoint and Excel?
Thanks ---
Jazz
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:37:27 GMT
You seem to have a fixation on wet dreams Perry?
Are they a problem for you?
I have a girlfriend Psychologist that might be able to help you.
claire
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:24:55 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering student
>who had
>> > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old sysadmin
>in
>> boston.
>>
>> amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
>>
>
>In your wet dreams, Dristan.
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Convince me to run Linux?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:56:41 GMT
"2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:50:39 GMT, Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > How about a decent newsreader with scorefile ?
> > > Electronics programs, schematic and PCB cad programs ?
> > > Flowcharts
> > > Html servers
> > > Irc servers
> > > Ftp servers
> > > Programming, editors, compilers, profilers, debugers
> > > Irc clients
> > >
> > > No ? how sad, Linux comes with these and *thousands* more "FREE
SOFTWARE"
> > > programs.
> >
> > yeah?...really good...eeehh now, the problem is that no "end-user" wants
any
> > of these, unless youre a geek of course....
> Or an electrical engineer (in the case of spice)
>
> Or a scientist doing a remotely computer based science (physice,
> computer science, chemistry, engineering, biology) all can have
> simulation programs written for them.
>
> Oh, yes. I forgot, you must be a geek since you use a nwsreader (see
> what exactly you said geek to).
hmm...shure, i think you now what i talked about...
compilers (gcc,fortran, lisp, blaha blaha) editors (vi, pico, emacs) servers
(wu-ftp, apache, sendmail) are things a examples of what a "end-user" WONT
need to have installed AND doesnt have any use for....
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:54:43 GMT
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> >Classes break object-orientation because the behaviour of objects
> >is stored in a completely different object from what's supposed to
> >be the object (it's stored in a "class" object).
>
> Well, I guess that answers my implied question. :-) Of course, I do
> wonder why this is stuck on Sun's website, when Sun is pushing Java....
> why aren't they pushing Self??
>
> Bizarre.
Bowing to larger political forces perhaps. Java is like C/C++.
Smalltalk is not and Self is even farther removed. Consider that
if Smalltalk is too revolutionary (image based, reuseable objects
and OO) for most people to understand all at once and Self adds
two revolutionary ideas (prototypes and the Alternate Reality UI)
on top of these, most people are simply left staring in amazement
like slack-jawed yokels.
> >ROTFLMAO. There are so many other warts, it makes the whole
> >language ugly. And there is absolutely *nothing* in Java that
> >hasn't existed in Smalltalk for years and years and years;
> >sometimes even decades.
>
> Does make one wonder. Mind you, Sun invented Java; I don't
> think Sun invented Smalltalk, and that makes me wonder
> even more.
Xerox PARC invented Smalltalk. And the ethernet. And the PUI
(ie, Parc User Interface, aka as "the" GUI). And the mouse
(except the mouse was supposed to come with a chording keyboard
for the left hand). They're still at it; busily inventing what
other people sell.
A thumbnail sketch of PARC might be 'geniuses managed by morons'.
> (Java's still a reasonably good language, IMO; maybe
> Smalltalk's a better one. I don't know; haven't used it.)
Java is impossible to teach to most people. Even Smalltalk
isn't as simple as it could be because of classes. So that
makes "reasonably good" strictly relative to programmers.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Kennel)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:57:42 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com
On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:31:22 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>Ironically, those indoctrinated/educated under a Communist system are
:>more likely to understand this. One of Marx's famous "contradictions
:>of capitalism" is the observation that the success of free markets
:>depend on the vigorous pursuit of profit but that the pursuit of
:>profit is inherently linked to the pursuit of the destruction of free
:>competition in the market. He was hardly original {Adam Smith wrote
:>about it extensively} but he got better PR.
:
:I would have to argue this point. I don't believe that there is any
:such paradox; the pursuit of profits is not inherently linked to the
:pursuit of the destruction of free competition.
The pursuit of modest profit isn't, but the pursuit of maximum profit is.
:It is an obvious
:temptation, of course, but then, just about any benefit can be a
:temptation to act unethically, if unethical pursuit of the benefit is
:tolerated.
Precisely, and I believe as A Smith believed.
The implication is that for a successful free-market system to prevail
there must be extra-market constraints---ethical, legal and
ideological---that are sufficiently potent to thwart the
microeconomic drives of most in pursuit of maximum individual profit.
I think that Marx didn't think that this could be made to work (as those
with the gold get to make the rules).
I disagree with Marx. That means that there must be principled voices
who can vigorously argue for wise and ethical business practices as
virtuous defenders of capitalism without apology instead of being
viewed as softy-socialists.
One problem is that many of those arguing for wise and ethical business
practices do so because they _are_ softy-socialists.
George Soros is an example and I think he is fundamentally misunderstood
and the attacks against him are a good example of the problem.
The editorial page of the Wall Street Journal is the Pravda of the class
that is the problem.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Kennel)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:59:38 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com
On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:54:16 GMT, Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:
:"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
:news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
:> The bizarre part is that I can't for the life of me figure out where
:> anyone got the idea that a vendor *isn't* actually *supposed* to try to
:> make their product compatible with everybody else's, regardless of their
:> market share.
:
:Up to a point, it's counter productive to do so. Why would anyone do so if
:it costs more? If people will pay for that compatibility, then software will
:get written that's compatible. If it's not an issue -- that is, it's not
:something that will sell more of the product, then it won't get put in.
:Simple economics.
Perfect example of why microeconomic gradient climbing doesn't lead to
macroeconomic optimality.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:04:52 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I also don't live in a country that is falling apart.
>
> claire
...errrr?...you dont live in the us?
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:04:49 GMT
FM wrote:
> But what is this "object orientation" it's breaking?
>
> Classes might not be the ideal way but to say that they
> break object orientaion simply because they don't meet
> certain consistency standards you externally impose on
> models that others find perfectly fine is logically
> indefensible.
>
> Self is a great language, but it doesn't need idiots
> to promote it.
There speaks someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable
for a term (OO) to be spin-doctored into oblivion. Oh, also
someone who confuses the architecture of a paradigm with
its low-level design. But hey, if a term (architecture and
OO) has meaning only in a camp (Smalltalk users) foreign
to your own then it's perfectly sensible to deny it has
any meaning, and/or distort & abuse that meaning.
I just LOVE your implicit arguments by redefinition:
C++ is good because it is OO and OO means whatever the
fuck C++ has.
Of course now you'll deny that you ever implied any
such thing since you "only" argued the second half of
that statement. Conveniently forgetting that the first
half needs no arguing.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:26:29 -0500
"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> From the main page: http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/binaries/
> >>
> >> "For only the cost of media ($75 US) plus shipping, you can use the
> >software
> >> on an unlimited number of computers with a capacity of 8 or fewer
CPUs."
> >>
> >> From FAQ at http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/binaries/faq.html
> >>
> >> "You can use the Solaris 8 runtime environment at home or at work, for
> >> business or personal computing."
> >
> >I see you conveniently forgot that we're talking about Solaris 7 and
below.
>
> That's a crock of lame ass bullshit. Here is what you posted:
>
> http://x65.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=677223329
Here was my clarification (which you responded to, btw)
http://x55.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=677303057.1
> Furthermore, Sun isn't even selling
> Solaris 7 any more.
Funny, it's listed on their web site for sale, including prices and SKU's.
That's the price I listed in my clarification.
>What an older version used to cost is
> irrelevent. Solaris 8 is the current version and a fully capable
> version for up to eight processors is $75 with no limit on the # of
> machines you install it on.
It's what it STILL costs.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:08:05 -0400
From: Larry Ebbitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
jazz wrote:
> What is available for Linux? How about for Powerpoint and Excel?
StarOffice is a pretty good Office clone.
--
Larry Ebbitt - Linux + OS/2 - Atlanta
------------------------------
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