Linux-Advocacy Digest #711, Volume #29 Tue, 17 Oct 00 21:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (@..@)
Re: End-User Alternative to Windows (Gardiner Family)
Re: food for thought...flame suit on (Gardiner Family)
Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web! ("Otto")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (FM)
IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Do all Debian users have such bad attitudes? (Gardiner Family)
Re: IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year (Gardiner Family)
Re: KDE starting to stress out a little? (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (lyttlec)
Re: Claire Lynn (Gardiner Family)
Re: Claire Lynn (Gardiner Family)
Re: Astroturfing (lyttlec)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: @..@
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:11:43 GMT
Netware??? What the hell does that have to do with area 51?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "D. Brown"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Microsoft? Linux? Tcl? Notepad?!?! What the hell does any of this have to
>do with Netware?!?!?
>
>"Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>>
>> Peter da Silva wrote:
>>
>> > In article <vSPE5.133$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> > Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > Actually, Notepad is an app that should only take any decent developer
>a few
>> > > hours to write.
>> >
>> > I should hope so. You could write a Notepad clone in Tcl, sans printing,
>in a
>> > few minutes. The idea that it'd take a couple of weeks boggles me, as
>does the
>> > fact that Microsoft hasn't replaced it with a 32-bit application.
>>
>> I'm sorry you are so misinformed. Notepad has been 32-bit since 1993 with
>> NT3.5. Just another example of the "FUD" -- he he, that the Linux
>faithful try to
>> push on readers. Just remember, folks, that Linux is not even close to
>what the
>> "faithful" try to make it seem. So sad.
>>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: End-User Alternative to Windows
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:11:12 +1300
the problem with the general public is the view that UNIX is a hard OS to work
with, it has been made hard by companies not willing to listen to the end user
. Finally, companies such as SUN have finally realised that if they want to
capture the low end market they must make it so that any old dick head can set
up and run a server, thus, that is why many of the major UNIX venders are now
supporting GNOME, which looks pretty good so far, I can hardly wait until
version 2 is finally released. The last thing (which is very minor), hide the
boot sequence and instead have a nice graphical loader, in the case of Linux, a
Penguin walking accross the screen indicating the progress of the boot sequence.
Matt
Tony Tribelli wrote:
> Larry Ebbitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2:1 wrote:
>
> >> The early OSs were a lot less than DOS was. Dos is an old OS. 20 years
> >> ago, that wasw about all the OS you could fit o to one of those
> >> computers, but it was still an OS. Just because it was used long past
> >> it's use-by data, doesn't make it any less of an OS.
> >
> > The industry standards and real OS's were around long before DOS for
> > OC's. IBM had a couple and UNIX was around.
>
> Microsoft offered a Unix, XENIX, and users stuck to DOS despite Microsoft's
> advocacy for XENIX. Even with modern free Unix implementations the public at
> large has a hard time accepting Unix. Apple probably has the best approach
> with the upcoming MacOS X, bury and hide Unix so the user doesn't even know
> it's there.
>
> Tony
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: food for thought...flame suit on
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:33:07 +1300
I personally would rather have a OS with less functionality yet is more stable.
(IMHO), Microsoft should adopt the BSD Kernel and bolt the Windows GUI onto it,
once done, throw it on a server and let people hack it to kingdom come offering
rewards to people who can hack in and tell microsoft how they did it. although
some people believe the way UNIX handles filesystems is complicated. Via My
computer I, if I was a newbie, would find it easier to understand drives called
floppy and cdrom rather than A, C, D. There are several other examples on how, in
some cases, UNIX is easier than Windows.
matt
FM wrote:
> Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> The act of writing computer code is actually a small part of the overall
> >> software design process, and yet far too many Linux projects focus solely on
> >> this one area. It is why Linux breeds good programmers but lousy engineers.
>
> >I guess Linux itself does a worse job than Windows? lol , that's a
> >laugh. Linus may not be an engineer officially, but so far he and many
> >others sure have given MS a run for their money.
>
> You're missing the point. Linus and those who work on the
> Linux kernel are terrific programmers. He's criticizing
> those who are working on other programs that run on Linux.
>
> >> The "Freeloader" Culture
> >>
> >> I think that even Richard Stallman would agree that free software is about
> >> intellectual honesty: if you stand on the shoulders of giants to see
> >> farther, then give the giant credit where credit is due, and let others use
> >> your shoulders to see farther still. Yet many Linux advocates (even those
> >> who should know better) seem to focus on the "free" aspect above all else,
> >> to the extent that many younger programmers now expect anything digital to
> >> be free. Music, literature, movies, sourcecode, whatever. It has bred an
> >> entire generation of freeloaders.
>
> >I could be mistaken but a lot of the big names you hear floating around
> >in the Linux community are not Generation Xers. They are guys in their
> >30's and 40's and even 50's who did work in the OS and surrounding
> >applications to put them where they are today.
>
> People in their early-30's are definitely Generation Xers,
> and even then, he's not referring to those people. There
> are plenty of Linux advocates that are much younger.
>
> Dan.
------------------------------
From: "Otto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web!
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:50:28 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 00:04:00 GMT, Otto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: >
: >"Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: >news:1LmG5.2924$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: >:
: >: I don't buy that "easy to use" stuff for technical types. If you
factor
: >in
: >: how much effort that goes into keeping "MS-Windows" going, and compare
it
: >to
: >: learning a real OS, they are about the same. But the payback comes two
: >: ways, first - you have time to move your business ahead instead of
doing
: >: "reboot", "patch" and "security" while loops and second: you can use
Linux
: >: knowledge on HP-UX, Sun, UnixWare, SCO, Iris, AIX, and a host of
others.
: >: From a career perspective, it is vendor independent knowledge and pays
: >: better. McWindows, like McDonalds burgers, are quick but you get less.
: >
: >Wether you buy the "easy to use" stuff or not, it does not change the
facts.
: >I can't comment on the "McWindows", never heard of such an OS. However,
to
: >build up and learn a Linux system does take considerable amount of time,
not
: >to mention the software installation routines on Linux.
:
: ./setup
: ./install
: configure;make;install
: gnorpm
:
: None of these are terribly taxing and aren't that hard to remember
: after you've done them 10 or 20 times. They just might look different
: or scary (with all those icky compile commands) relative to what
: someone's been indoctrinated into.
You forgot to mention the un-tar/gzip part, not to mention the fact that one
would need to check what libraries are available/need to be installed also.
Even with that, you're right, it isn't terribly taxing. I just happen to
like Windows installation routine, setup.exe for most of the programs,
install.exe for others. That has nothing to do with being "indoctrinated
into", it's just personal preference.
:
:
: [deletia]
: >: and stability. The only thing that keeps NT afloat is that where else
do
: >: you know you can flip burgers on Tuesday and be a NT admin on Friday.
As
: >: the market matures, this will occur less often.
: >
: >The industry started out with Unix and along came NT beating the crap out
of
: >the "xNIX". When the 64-bit version of NT becomes available sometimes in
the
: >next year, it'll be lights out for the "xNIX". All of the "real
: >professionals" will be flipping burgers somewhere and they can keep
: >wondering about what hit them.
:
: Sun doesn't really have to worry. By your own admission, DOS
: is still trying to play catchup to where even free unix was
: years ago.
DOS will be history pretty soon...
: Nevermind the fact that for a serious server, intel based machines
: aren't going to be very price competitive anyways. That's not even
: getting into the scaling and HA options that RISC vendors have
: been delivering for years already.
Intel based machine came on a long way and Sun will worry, before you know
it.
: Even today, the systems that NT can run on are relative toys.
And those who have the most toys WINS.... (as in WINS servers, not intended
for screaming)
Otto
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (FM)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 17 Oct 2000 23:09:02 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>1) C++/Java dose X, and
>2) X *must not* be done, therefore
>3) C++/Java can't possibly be OO
That C++/Java does X contradicts that X *must not* be done.
At the very least, you need to qualify #2.
Also, that C++/Java does X that must not be done has nothing
to do with their not being OO. It appears, again, that you're
treating OO some sort of sacred philosophy. It's possible for
a really really bad language to break fundamental principles
left and right and still be OO.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:47:40 GMT
It was hiding sorta near the bottom of this article.
http://www.infoworld.com:80/articles/hn/xml/00/10/16/001016hnsoftware.xm
l
IDC predicts strong growth with the Linux operating system.
In the Linux applications development and deployment market,
the forecast is for a 183 percent growth rate. Linux, however,
will continue to lag behind Microsoft's 32-bit Windows operating
system development revenues.
Put more simply, actual dollars spent on Windows will be more
than Linux because Windows Server is about 10 times the price
of Linux server.
It's only logical that if Linux cost 1/10th the price of Windows NT,
that Linux could grow to 10 times the number of users of NT and still
only have the same revenue in terms of License/Package fees.
On the flip side, the deal with Linux has been Free Software, would
you like some service (consulting, operations support, help desk,
web hosting, outsourcing...) to go with it?
Granted, there is more competition in a market where everyone has
access to the same source code, but you're also less at the mercy
of a single vendor for access to critical information.
I'd like to acknowledge IDC for recognizing the phenomenal growth
of Linux (estimates range from 180% to 270% per annum).
This may indicate that actual license shipments will exceed Windows
(It looks like Linux is already outshipping Windows 2000 and Windows
ME upgrades). About the only barriers to market still standing are
the preinstallation of Linux vs ME/2K on new laptops and desktops,
and the proliferation of new applications.
Microsoft is by no means "out of business", but it will soon have to
start playing by Linux/UNIX rules.
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 50 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do all Debian users have such bad attitudes?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:09:42 +1300
Its like the Linux vs. Real UNIX debate. Some of the UNIX purists (typically
bearded and bald) claim that Linux is a watered down version of UNIX. In some
respects this is true, however, UNIX is clearly lacking hardware support, when
comparing Linux to UNIX with hardware support, Linux always comes out on top,
especially with the latest and greatest technologies. I would run Solaris 8,
however due to the pathetic hardware and software support for the Intel
Plaform I have chosen to go with Linux.
matt
"Jason A. Smith" wrote:
> Sorry if the subject sounds like flamebait, but I am getting so tired of
> all the RedHat bashing being done by Debian users, especially on slashdot!
> So, to all you Debian users out there, can you please explain to me why
> you go around spreading FUD about RedHat? Is it because RedHat is a
> commercial company? Are there real technical issues that make RedHat the
> piece of shit that you all claim it is? Or is it because Debian just
> happens attract a lot of these vocal assholes?
>
> I have used both systems and from a user standpoint, they are basically
> the same, like they should be since they both share 99% of the same
> software. I am sure from an administrators point of view there are
> probably some differences, but here I only have experience with RedHat.
> In this area, I have never had any problems figuring out RedHat's system
> of configuration files in /etc. So what is the big problem with RedHat?
> I have even seen comments from Debian users who claim to have little or no
> respect for RedHat users? Why are they such assholes? I have never seen
> a RedHat user bash a Debian user like this? All these negative comments
> do nothing but decrease my respect for Debian and it's users. If you like
> one system over another then use it, I don't give a shit. Why do you have
> to put others down just because they are using the other system? Grow up
> people! It is all Linux!
>
> ~Jason
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:19:11 +1300
I am suprised that Microsoft is still selling Windows, considering that 80%
of their revenue comes from Microsoft Office. If I was the CEO from
Microsoft I would open source Windows (both NT and 98), combine the good
aspects of GNU/LINUX and Windows and release a Microsoft Linux.
Considering, in the near future OSs will play a smaller role as applications
will move onto the web and all processing made centralised, either via a web
browser or Citrix Winframe client (which is available for many platforms).
matt
"R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" wrote:
> It was hiding sorta near the bottom of this article.
>
> http://www.infoworld.com:80/articles/hn/xml/00/10/16/001016hnsoftware.xm
> l
>
> IDC predicts strong growth with the Linux operating system.
> In the Linux applications development and deployment market,
> the forecast is for a 183 percent growth rate. Linux, however,
> will continue to lag behind Microsoft's 32-bit Windows operating
> system development revenues.
>
> Put more simply, actual dollars spent on Windows will be more
> than Linux because Windows Server is about 10 times the price
> of Linux server.
>
> It's only logical that if Linux cost 1/10th the price of Windows NT,
> that Linux could grow to 10 times the number of users of NT and still
> only have the same revenue in terms of License/Package fees.
>
> On the flip side, the deal with Linux has been Free Software, would
> you like some service (consulting, operations support, help desk,
> web hosting, outsourcing...) to go with it?
>
> Granted, there is more competition in a market where everyone has
> access to the same source code, but you're also less at the mercy
> of a single vendor for access to critical information.
>
> I'd like to acknowledge IDC for recognizing the phenomenal growth
> of Linux (estimates range from 180% to 270% per annum).
>
> This may indicate that actual license shipments will exceed Windows
> (It looks like Linux is already outshipping Windows 2000 and Windows
> ME upgrades). About the only barriers to market still standing are
> the preinstallation of Linux vs ME/2K on new laptops and desktops,
> and the proliferation of new applications.
>
> Microsoft is by no means "out of business", but it will soon have to
> start playing by Linux/UNIX rules.
>
> --
> Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
> Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
> http://www.open4success.com
> Linux - 50 million satisfied users worldwide
> and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE starting to stress out a little?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:13:20 GMT
In article <8sicr8$93u$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check this out:
>
> http://dot.kde.org/971680096/
>
> With all of the KDE vs GNome stuff going on, and with all the added
> corporate pressures these days, I was starting to wonder if the "Meet
> the folks behind KDE" articles that had been going on lately were part
> of a PR response (along with GPLing everything, trying to get KOffice
> out in time to match OpenOffice, etc.). Is the stress starting to
> affect these guys, you think?
Actually, what makes the whole Open Source thing so interesting is that
it actually functions far more effeciently as a "virtual organization"
than most privately held companies. There aren't many places where
you can manage tens of thousands or contributors with only 4-5 tiers
of management and minimal "hard" resources.
> Maybe a KDE Foundation is in order to start adding some internal
> infrastructure (management, office assistants, etc.) to help the
> programmers out a little. Just so long as management doesn't take over
> (grin)...
This has always been the concern. Who would you have running the
show? On one end of the spectrum, you have Richard Stallman who
is essentially homeless and at the other you have Bill Gates who
wants to purchase all intellectual property rights on earth by
the time he's 60.
Ironically, each has a key role. Without Richard Stallman standing
as the guardian of the GPL, you would have Microsoft doing to all
open source, exactly what it did to NCSA and Mosaic (Internet Explorer).
You'd have hundreds of little meglamaniacs doing "emprace/extend" much
the way UNIX vendors tried to make market coups by adding a unique
"1% of 1%" that made their flavor "better" than the others.
Without Bill Gates, you'd have no "bad guy" to unite against. You'd
suddenly have everybody pointing at each other in the classic "mexican
stand off" where the first guy who pulls the trigger is guaranteed to
die.
> Meanwhile, still waiting for GNUstep to take over the
> world after these two giants destroy each other...
I don't think anybody is going to "take over the world". It'll be
more of a "cooperative republic" or "democratic anarchy". The GNU
manefesto contains the warning against attempts to control the conduit
of intellectual property. Whether it's DVD-CSS or Microsoft Word,
such "exclusions by contract" threaten not only the reader/viewer, but
also the publisher's access to his market.
How long would it have been before the DVD-CCA began demanding a 2%,
or even a 15% "royalty" for the continued "protection" of video
products? Perhaps a year?
Conversely, RSA and LZW/GIF were adopted even in the face of patent
royalties because the royalties were reasonable, the algorythms could
be trusted not to change, and the exchange of information could be
universal.
By the same token, when the terms were too extraordinary, it wasn't
that hard for students and hackers to create original new alternatives
such as PGP and gzip.
Ironically, it's likely that what will really drive the demand
for Linux is the shortage of talent. Linux/UNIX requires less
maintainance, less support, and less development time (for
custom applications) than most comparable Windows NT solutions.
> -ws
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 50 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: lyttlec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:22:52 GMT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 06:10:50 GMT, Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Darin Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > >> Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >>
> > >> > In fact, Gallup has shown that most Americans are against the DoJ
> > >> > position by an overwhelming majority. Reference:
> > >>
> > >> Well, if US law was based on majority rule, you might have a point.
> > >
> > >It is. This is a democracy. Read the Constitution.
> >
> > No, it's a republic: improve your reading skills.
>
> How does this change his original point that the majority rule?
>
> (i.e. majority vote for an electee which then carries out, for the most
> part, the will of his/her constituents)
>
> -Chad
First there isn't one electee there are many. Look at Congress.
Secondly, you don't vote for a president, you vote for electors who may
or may not vote for one of the major candidates for president. Our
Republic was specifically designed to protect against the "Tyranny of
the Majority". So there isn't any "majority rule" here.
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:24:28 +1300
what is COLA?
matt
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Whatever.
>
> Most of the Linvocates in this group can't advocate their collective
> ass's out of a paper bag. They may be technically astute, but their
> companies lock them away in rubber coding rooms far from the clients
> because they are so, well, geeky.
>
> They use a variety of tricks to worm and slither around an arguments.
>
> 1.Change the subject.
> 2.Don't even address the subject.
> 3.Drag other topics into the subject.
> 4. Play semantics.
> 5.Offer absolutely no proof when they are contested.
> 6. Out and out lie.
> 7.Compare current Linux to version a of Windows 95.
> 8. Resort to name calling when all else fails.
>
> A pathetic bunch of geeks infest this group. But you do serve a
> purpose. You guys have absolutely no idea how much slap-stick
> entertainment you provide for so many folks just looking for a laugh.
>
> Linux can be quite funny at times. Especially with a sorry bunch of
> fools advocating it.
>
> This group is the biggest joke on the entire net. It gets mentioned in
> the trade rags all the time as well as in user groups, at least where
> I live. We think it is hysterical.
>
> You are your own worst enemies because people wander into this group,
> take a look around and say to themselves, "These Linux people are a
> miserable lot". And they are.
>
> We got a guy who talks like Dr. Seuss.
> We got a guy who writes a dissertation to every question.
> We have a guy who can't use a spell checker.
> Another one who just makes up "facts" as he goes along.
> A couple of Sci-Fi nuts with this Tholen thing that goes on forever.
> A couple of developers, why the hell they are here is beyond me?
> Some nasty folks.
> People complaining when their 486 computer won't work.
> People who like to dissect every word all the time ignoring the
> context of the statement.
> You guys even have to kill filter your own advocates.
>
> Yes we have it all here in COLA.
>
> It's just like a Circus, only better.
>
> I have to wonder how many are kids either in High School or College.
> It's quite obvious that some have never seen the inside of a glass
> house.
>
> claire
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:56:52 GMT, sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >And you, claire, are the bigest joke here!
> >
> >
> >
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> Pure entertainment. This collection of misguided, lost souls is one of
> >> the most hilarious groups on the net.
> >> Nothing more nothing less.
> >>
> >> claire
> >>
> >> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:15:46 GMT, "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've been lurking around this group for a few weeks now, and I've
> >noticed
> >> >a large volume of posts being made by Claire Lynn. I don't have
> >anything
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:28:10 +1300
what are the PAYE tax rates in US ? just out of curiousity :)
matt
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was gone for a month and a half and this group sunk to a new low in
> dull! Gore+Bush taxes, schools and several other OT that went on
> forever.
>
> Let's liven this place up a little.
> A couple of people called me nasty names, so I am returning the favor.
>
> At least you guys are exercising your fingers replying to me.
>
> claire
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:20:17 -0400, David M. Butler
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> Whatever.
> >>
> >> Most of the Linvocates in this group can't advocate their collective
> >> ass's out of a paper bag. They may be technically astute, but their
> >> companies lock them away in rubber coding rooms far from the clients
> >> because they are so, well, geeky.
> >
> >*giggle*
> >
> >You certainly like to stir up trouble in here, doncha? :P
> >
------------------------------
From: lyttlec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:29:06 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "lyttlec" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In the bookstores the new books have "MCSP" Microsoft Certified
> > Solutions Provider or Microsoft Certified Software Professional, "MCDBA"
> > Microsoft Certified Data Base Administrator, "MSNA" Microsoft Certified
> > Network Administrator. The older books still show MSCE. But it doesn't
> > matter much what MS says. Just don't call yourself an Engineer on your
> > business card if you go into consulting.
>
> MCSP is a different certification than MCSE. MCSP is a certificaiton for
> management if I recall correctly, while the MSNA is limited only to
> networking versus Windows support, etc...
MCSP is being used on the programming language books that used to show
MCSE. i.e VB, VC++. Perhaps its just a marketing thing to get people to
pay more money for 4 letters of the alphabet.
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