Linux-Advocacy Digest #807, Volume #29 Sun, 22 Oct 00 11:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: What I don't like about RedHat Linux. (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows. (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (Static66)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Paul 'Z' Ewande©")
Re: Time is Money (WAS: A classic example of unfriendly Linux) (Bloody Viking)
Re: Claire Lynn (Bob Hauck)
Re: Astroturfing (Bob Germer)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (Charlie Ebert)
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! ("Chad Myers")
Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE ("James E. Freedle II")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Chad Myers")
Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE ("James E. Freedle II")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: What I don't like about RedHat Linux.
Date: 22 Oct 2000 14:19:26 GMT
On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:20:14 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>The problem, I think is that all the dependencies are not as sensible as
>they should be. For instance, XFree 3.3.6-20 needed xfs to go with it.
>This is no problem. The problem lies in xfs needing a new set of
>initscripts. This is plain stupid. Why can't xfs put the relavent script
>in /etc/rc.d/init.d and run chkconfig on it?
Because more than one package might depend on the same script.
IMO, dependencies *should* be over-zealous, for the simple reason that
they can be overridden by the user anyway. It's better to get a pointless
warning than to have something break because you didn't get a warning.
>Going further down the tree of dependencies, new newt libraries needed
>to be installed. rpm wouldn't let me upgrade or install the packages
>because existing files depended on the old libraries.
You can install new shared libraries, with rpm -i. You don't want to upgrade
( rpm -U ) because this breaks old packages.
> What I don't
>understand is why it wouldn't install new libraries, whilst leaving the
>old ones in place (I made it do that after some fiddling).
It can usually do this, as long as you don't have two packages which share
a file.
>What I will say about the package system is that it wouldn't let me
>break anything in the install process, unless I forced it to.
And this is the way it should be IMO. If you don't like dependencies,
you can always just use --nodeps and over-rule them.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows.
Date: 22 Oct 2000 14:25:33 GMT
On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:36:09 +0000, Jacques Guy wrote:
>Wonderful news! At long last they'll be able
>to pay dividends to their shareholders.
It's actually impossible for most tech companies ( the ones that aren't
in big trouble ) to pay dividends. The problem is that these companies
typically have very high P/E ( price/earnings ) ratios, so even if they
payed out *all* their earnings as a dividend, the dividend yield would
still be 1-2%.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Static66 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:25:41 GMT
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 23:07:29 -0400, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Loren Petrich wrote:
>>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Define "yellow-dog Republicanism" in a way that goes beyond
>> > "evil-sounding ad hominem that Loren pulls out of his ass whenever
>> > he's losing an argument"
>>
>> "I'd vote for any yellow dog who just happens to be a Republican".
>
>That's the best you can come up with, fat ass?
>
>http://www.webcom.com/petrich/my_portrait.jpg
>
>>
>> Sort of like a yellow-dog Democrat.
>
>Translation: fat-ass wanna-be-dictator socialist losers like Loren.
well he is of croatian decent and they did side with the nazi's for
awile if I'm not mistaken...
its also Funny how he chose to rip my military service in bosnia, when
his family came from the region and should know full well of the
horrors and hardships suffered there.
>
>>
>> --
>> Loren Petrich
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>> And a fast train
------------------------------
From: "Paul 'Z' Ewande©" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:39:14 +0200
"mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
> The very fact that the majrity of people are running a 10 year old, 32
Win 9x is so old ?
> bit shell, on top of a 20 year old 16 bit floppy based OS, in the 21st
Some computer "experts" do think that Win9x is an OS in its own right.
> century on what 20 years ago would have been called a super computer,
> with less reliability than a video game, tells me that MS has harmed the
A video game does only one thing on a particularly limited set of hardware.
> computer industry.
>
> UNIX on the other hand, was designed and developed with the notion of
Of course, UNIX people had a crystal ball and knew in the 70s how the
computer would evolve in 30 years, gimme a little break.
> what computers, like the ones that we are using, could do.
Sure, why didn't they bring that formidable and visionary computing marvel
into the hands of the layman when it mattered ?
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bloody Viking)
Subject: Re: Time is Money (WAS: A classic example of unfriendly Linux)
Date: 22 Oct 2000 14:23:40 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: Your shyness problem only exist because you like having it.
If I liked having it, I would not be in the process of researching up an
efficient solution to it. If you endured a shy period in your life and
overcame it, it's a result of a neuro imbalance fixing itself, NOT becuse
self-help worked.
I have attempted your solution of voluntary exposure therapy and it didn't
work at all. The latest attempt, fuelled with Xanax, was a swimming adventure,
and I found out that I'm about as aquatic as a chimpanzee. Too bad I don't
have the fur to match, though that can be arranged if my doc goes bad.
Previous attempts included acting classes, a Linux fan club, karaoke-singing
while sober, and so on. Conventional self-help plain does not work. If it did
work, I would not have the problem by now and I would be seen on TV.
Most likely, I will ultimately resort to going under the border to get a
working med - AFTER I end up getting as hirsute as an orangutan. I done
engineered a method of replicating John Howard Griffin of "Black Like Me"
fame that is OTC. I'm on a collision course with DIY Medicine, and possibly
DIY Surgery. The med will be used to test it out before I build the remote
control surgery robot. And the robot will use Linux as the control OS. I
already have a working technology for uninterruptible power for such a robot.
(UPS with added batteries)
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:43:41 GMT
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:26:09 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:43:41 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck) wrote:
>
>>And I'm sure the "geeks" prefer it that way just as much as you do.
>
>Sure they do.
> They are an anti-social bunch.
Because they don't like to hang around with you?
>>Why does the company keep these "geeks" around anyway? Do you suppose
>>that they have some skills that the compnay needs?
>
>Of course they do and the company drains their brains and then let's
>them go and hires a new bunch of geeks at less salary.
Right. That must be why these "geeks" get handfuls of email from
headhunters every week. So they can change jobs and get paid less.
>>Having nice blow-dried hair and being able to grease customers is not
>>the be-all of useful skills you know.
>
>But they typically make substantially more money than the geeks do.
Only if they have something to sell. And even then I'm skeptical that
the averages work out that way. Blow-dried hair and the ability to lie
in complete sentences are common skills. The ability to design
circuits and software that work correctly is much less common.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:50:16 GMT
On 10/22/2000 at 05:16 AM,
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >Oh yeah - you need proof - records - otherwise you can't say who's
> >paying for peole to work on MS's behalf.
> How can you make a statement that MS is doing this if there is no
> evidence?
> >> Besides that, do you really think $200 is all that much money to a
> >> mayor or republican party official?
> >Yes - in fact if they workd for the feds or state they'd be criminals
> >for accepting a gift. That amount is substancial.
> Strange, political figures accept money all the time, legally. Why
> would this suddenly make them criminals, yet the $100,000's they accept
> for campaign funding is not? Furthermore, many government officials do
> things to earn money outside their official duties. Some publish books,
> some do fundraisers (and accept money for the appearance), etc...
Politicians can accept campaign contributions legally. They cannot accept
gratuities or gifts of other than nominal value (defined as less than $50
in most jurisdictions with some lower and a few higher) without breaking
the law. When a federal employee receives a gift of more than nominal
value, he or she must hand it over to the government which then appraises
the gift, gives the receipient the right to purchase it, or holds it for
government use. Other than ELECTED officials, no federal employee can
engage in political activity without losing his or her job.
No federal employee can work at a second job in the area of his or her
federal appointment or job. For example, one of my classmates is an
attorney for the Federal Aviation Administration. He can not engage in any
employment of a legal nature whatsoever. He could work at 7-11, drive a
cab, or sell bibles. But he would be on very thin ice if he decided to
sell real estate since drafting contracts which agents do is considered
legal work. He can not even engage in legal representation on on pro bono
basis where he is not paid a cent without risk of losing his federal job.
The same is true of most civil service, postal service employees, etc. at
both the state and federal level. In Friday's Camden Courier Post was a
story about the ELECTED Surrogate of Camden County who chose to resign his
$85,000+ a year job because he campaigned for James Florio in the
Democratic Gubernatorial Primary. Likewise, his assistant who stuffed
envelopes and manned a phone bank was suspended without pay for 30 days
since she did those things at the direction of her boss. Three clerks who
worked for her were suspended for 7 days each without pay for helping her.
Allenwood Federal Prison was the residence of a couple dozen ELECTED
Philadelphia Municipal Court Judges who accepted $300 from the Teamster's
Union as personal gifts, not political campaign contributions. Each was
sentenced to a year and had to serve 10 months.
Did you ever hear of Abscam? It was a little sting run by the FBI during
the Carter Administration. Several Congressmen, a New Jersey Senator
(Harrison Williams), and the Mayor of Camden all went to prison for
several years for accepting gifts in return for either taking or promising
to take official acts on behalf of the donors who were actually FBI
personnel pretending to be Arab oil barons. It is interesting that a
Democratic President and Attorney General only managed to find one
Repubican willing to break the law. All those jailed but one sex-crazed
idiot from Florida were Democrats. One of the Democratic Representatives,
Ozzie Meyers of Philadelphia, was widely shown on TV saying, "Money talks;
bullshit walks" on the FBI's hidden cameras.
So, Fuckinliar, you are again proved an idiot tool of Chairman Bill.
> The money does not appear to be for performing an official duty, but
> rather to perform an unofficial duty while lending their position as
> credentials.
That is against the law as well when it involves a controversial matter.
Why, for example, don't you see liberal governors, senators, etc.
endorsing environmental groups? It's because they cannot legally do it.
They can and do endorse non-controversial eleemosynary activities like the
United Way, Jerry's Kids, etc.
> >> It would hardly motivate anyone to do something
> >> against their will, but rather compensate them for their time. It's
> >>common
> >> practice to compensate people for time they might have otherwise used
> >> to make money elsewhere.
> >Funny - you say the person is being compensated for their time
> >advocating on MS's behalf (unlike yourself who works for free) but you
> >question if MS is paying for the work that benefits them. Who are
> >supposed to be fooling?
> What's wrong with your reading comprehension, Joseph, that you can't
> notice the words "Besides that" in my statements. That means, "Even if
> it were true".
FIrst of all, that weak assed attempt to paint shit white didn't appear in
your message. Secondly, it is bogus. You are a flat ass liar.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
Tiny Timmie the Liar Martin of Warped City claims eCOMStation is MS
software!
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:53:12 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Dork.
>
> claire
>
> On 22 Oct 2000 07:13:09 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry
> Porter) wrote:
>
> >Nothing of any value.
Show us something of value in any of your 150 some odd messages Claire?
Any one of them, please.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:40:06 GMT
"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:5OAI5.11392$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:7vrI5.2781$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:yV5I5.164$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > How come Windows can't detect all the partitions on a hard drive?
> >
> > Which partitions can't it detect? It may not recognize partitions for
> > unsupported filesystems, but it certainly detects them. Going into fdisk
> > they show up as non-dos partitions.
>
> It doesn't detect the Linux partitions on my hard drive. fdisk, of course,
> is not Windows. I'm not looking for a utility (fdisk or any other) to
> detect what's on my drive. I *know* what's on it.
>
> The truth is that all this came about in response to all the Winvocates
> pretending outrage that Linux doesn't detect all their RAM. When told about
> the one line fix for this, the response was something along the lines of:
> "But I shouldn't HAVE to edit some config file to get full use of my
> system." Something like that. I'm paraphrasing, obviously.
You're comparing apples to oranges. If Windows didn't detect the whole
hard drive, then you'd have an argument.
Linux doesn't detect and mount all partitions. Most Linux distros
won't mount NTFS partitions without special software. Likewise,
Windows won't mount ext2fs partitions without special software.
Linux, however, can't even detect the basic hardware situation
of the computer. This doesn't compare evenly with the logical
layout of the partition table.
> My experience with Windows has always been that almost any time I do
> something to change configuration, I'm asked to reboot. Even installing
> applications often requires reboot.
> That has always annoyed the hell out of me, so this time my question was
> genuine. I don't have Win2K and I am honestly wondering if it is the same
> way.
In Windows 2000, this is not the case. There are older applications which
say they need to reboot, but, in fact, they do not.
Win2K has a newer, better way of replacing in-use or system files that
doesn't usually require a reboot. They installs say they do, but they
usually they don't.
> > > As for Java, do you mean the bastardized version that Microsoft foisted
> on
> > > the public with the utterly meaningless (and unoriginal) name of J++?
> >
> > Microsoft, like any other Java licensee was not allowed to use the name
> Java
> > for their products. That's why Borland has J Builder, Symtec had Visual
> > Cafe, etc...
> >
> > Don't be so foolish.
>
> By "bastardized", I was referring to the changes Microsoft made to make
> their version of Java incompatible with others.
>
> When I said the name "J++" was meaningless and unoriginal, I was merely
> being insulting.
You mean the J/Direct extensions that you could easily turn off and
create a 100% pure Java that ran on any machine with a JVM?
Java didn't have any native support for object brokering technologies
(such as COM) and, as such, MS had to add the J/Direct extensions to
make up for where Sun left off.
Of course, it is very easy to turn off these extensions when you're
not developing for Windows.
> > > As for Win32/64...you mean Windows is finally 32 bit, without all that
> > > kludgy 16-bit stuff they never could seem to get beyond? Hey,
> > > congratulations. Welcome to the 80s, you guys!
> >
> > Win32 is an API. The implementation of it is irrelevant. Windows NT has
> > never had the 16 bit portions that Win9x had, nor does Windows 2000.
>
> I have hope that you're correct about Win2K. Microsoft's marketing claims
> about Win9x through the years still leave me with a tiny bit of doubt,
> though.
This only shows your ignorance. The Win2K kernel is an improved version of
the NT kernel which is fully 32-bit and has never had any 16-bitness at
all. In fact, the portion of NT that allows 16-bit apps to run is actually
in user-land and it's a subsystem just like the OS/2 and POSIX subsystems--
maintained for legacy support.
> Still, I've seen nothing to make me doubt it, so I'm sure Windows 2000 is
> completely 32 bit.
Of course it is. There should be no doubt if you know what you're talking
about.
> > > > Post proof of X being more stable than Windows 2000 please.
> > >
> > > Post proof that Microsoft has ever had an operating system as stable as
> > > Linux. You obviously can't since they never have. And since they have
> > > always lied about it and *claimed* stability superior to that of Linux,
> > why
> > > should we believe their current claims? We've heard it all before.
> >
> > X has nothing to do with Linux. I've had X lock up on me many times, and
> I
> > don't use it all that often. Netscape can bring it down faster than
> > anything else.
>
> I agree. X is not Linux.
So, when it suits the argument (i.e. "Yes, Linux is a modern OS with a GUI!")
then X is part of Linux. When it doesn't suit your argument (i.e. "X is a
big pile of shit that never works right, crashes the whole system regularly,
and doesn't hold a productivity candle to Windows") then it isn't, huh?
> It's an application that runs on Linux (and other
> operating systems as well). And I too have had many X lockups . But I have
> always been able to shut down and restart X without affecting Linux, or
> anything else that was running on Linux, in the least. I think there have
> been 2, maybe 3 exceptions in the last 4 years, and all of those times I was
> running some highly experimental alpha/beta version of something as root.
> Stupid, I know, but sometimes I do it anyway.
Hmm, I've had basic XFree86 that comes with RH Linux 6.1 and 6.2 lock up
and hose the whole system. No keyboard input was processed. The CTRL+ALT+
F1-8 or whatever didn't work at all. CTRL+BACKSPACE didn't do anything,
the whole system was froze. I am not alone in this regard, many, including
penguinistas themselves have stated they've experienced this before.
X is a pile of junk, why won't you guys just admit it and move on and
develop something worth-while?
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "James E. Freedle II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:00:36 -0400
"Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "James E. Freedle II" wrote:
>
> > I have not spent that much, and a lot of what comes with linux is
> > duplication. Eventually I will learn Linux, but it will take time, but I
> > have to get my lab reports done, and my drawings finished. Now I may
have
> > software that will do with what I have on Windows 2000, but I do not
know
> > what I have installed under linux. I do not know half of the 1,500+
> > applications that came with my linux distribution. BTW what comes with
Linux
> > that Windows does not have on the CD?
>
> TeX, emacs, gcc, xbill, perl, python,
And they are used for what?
>
> Colin Day
>
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:47:10 GMT
"Paul 'Z' Ewande©" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8suter$1hpk$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> <SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
>
> > The very fact that the majrity of people are running a 10 year old, 32
>
> Win 9x is so old ?
Penguinista math is a little fuzzy. 2000 - 1995 = 10 years, I guess.
However, the "majrity" of people are actually running Win98, so the
exact statement would be: 2000 - 1998 = 10 years.
> > bit shell, on top of a 20 year old 16 bit floppy based OS, in the 21st
>
> Some computer "experts" do think that Win9x is an OS in its own right.
Depends what you're definition of "OS" is. If you use the common
definition which is something like a kernel that schedules and manages
processes, memory, and hardware, some type of disk access and some type of UI
then Win95 is an OS. It has it's own virtual memory manager (VMM32) and
it's on process scheduler for the preemptive multitasking, etc.
Win95 isn't a shell on top of DOS. The Win95 main executable code (in win.com)
needs to be loaded from somewhere. Win95 doesn't have a loader like NT does,
so it boots to DOS 7 and then loads win.com. This is very similar to how
Novell NetWare works. It must boot to DOS and then run nwserver (or whatever
the exe name was) which then puts the processer into 32-bit protected mode
and sets up all the OS stuff from there.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "James E. Freedle II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:03:19 -0400
"Tim Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:40:40 -0400, James E. Freedle II
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >That is fine if you have all the time in the world to work with your
> >computer. I have a little time every night, and I want to get things
done,
> >rather than spend months trying to figure out how to work with linux.
> >Besides the fact that it will not work with my hardware, and I am not
going
> >to spend extra money on getting hardware that will work with Linux.
Windows
> >2000 is rock solid, of course Linux is rock solid (it just sits there). I
do
> >not know half of what is installed on Linux. At least I can get my
homework
> >done in Windows. And Windows 2000 is perfect for home use. I switched
from
> >Windows 98SE because of the limited resource heaps.
> >Linux may be ready for the desktop in some years, but until it is, it
will
> >be only in VMWare.
>
> I don't have $15,000 for extra software to bring Win2K up to par with
> linux and all the applications that come with it.
Neither do I, but as far as I know most of the stuff that Linux has is
duplication and mostly useless stuff for a home user.
>
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.iww.org
>
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:09:05 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said mlw in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Chad Myers wrote:
[...]
>The very fact that the majrity of people are running a 10 year old, 32
>bit shell, on top of a 20 year old 16 bit floppy based OS, in the 21st
>century on what 20 years ago would have been called a super computer,
>with less reliability than a video game, tells me that MS has harmed the
>computer industry.
[...]
That is one for the quote-books, my friend.
Thank you very much for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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