Linux-Advocacy Digest #466, Volume #30 Mon, 27 Nov 00 09:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Things I have noticed................ ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Things I have noticed................ (mlw)
Re: Whistler review. ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
humor ("Patrick McAllister")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Andres Soolo)
Re: Things I have noticed................ (Jacques Guy)
Re: Things I have noticed................ (Jacques Guy)
Re: Things I have noticed................ (Andres Soolo)
Re: Software Engineering (was: Re: C++ is very alive!) (mlw)
Re: C++ is very alive! (mlw)
Re: Whistler review. ("Chad Myers")
Re: Same old Linux..Nothing new here... (Marc Richter)
Re: Whistler review. ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. (kiwiunixman)
Off Topic: Funny Light Bulb Joke: ("kiwiunixman")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:11:11 -0500
kiwiunixman wrote:
>
> Things I have noticed from my own experience and from reply's to this news
> group:
>
> 1. When wintel users argue a topic and they find that they getting beaten,
> they bring out the old GUI argument, the perfect example of this is in the
> whistler post, to sum it up, "Fuck the quality, what about the pretty
> colours", the amount of time Microsoft spends on the GUI, Bill Gates might
> as well be a fashion designer, "Bill Gates Summer Fashion Collection", could
> you imagine an interview with Bill Gates (fashion designer), "this new
> summer collection is a combination of colour and patterns to compliment the
> summer atmosphere, and as normal, we have stuck to the main selling
> principle, "More colour, less quality" ".
>
> This conclusion made from the "whistler" post by Ayende Rahien.
>
> 2. From who I know in the Wintel world, Wintel users tend to have the worst
> taste in fashion and music. Two of them could not co-ordinate colours and
> patterns if their life depended on it :) God, music, listening to rubbish
> such as Five, Backstreet Boys, S-Club and Boy Zone. You are probably
> saying, "What has fashion and music un-cordination have to do with OS's",
> everything! This argument is no better than the GUI argument that gets used
> by wintel users.
>
> This conclusion made from analysing Wintel user responses and people at
> university.
>
> 3. So-called ex-linux users using the excuse, "it is too hard" as an excuse
> for not continuing to use Linux. Down the road at my local book store there
> were hundreds of books, from linux for beginners up to programming linux on
> servers, so for around $NZ99.95 (incl. GST) a user can get a book and a
> CD-ROM giving a complete guide on how to use Linux . Why should they read a
> book? well, isn't reading a book better than looking at the idiot box
> (television) at night.
>
> This conclusion reached from all the posts from Claire Lynn (now known as
> Sir)
>
> 4. The so-called UNIX crushing NT4 never achieved what it set out to do, it
> fact, it re-enforced the need to stick with UNIX, so in some respects, NT4
> was a god send for companys such as Sun Microsystems and SGI (Server
> Division) which gave them something to mock and use as a benchmark to prove
> their system reliability.
>
> This conclusion reached from market information and Chad's conviction that
> NT4 is better than UNIX.
>
> 5. Wintel users who post here tend to have 6 months experience and can click
> on the start button, hence, by Microsoft definition, they are an expert
> computer user. I, however started off using an Amiga 500, whilst at the same
> time I also taught my self how to program on a BBC-Micro with 32K mem, then
> I gradually moved on to a Pentium 75 with 8MB Ram (later upgraded to 40MB),
> used Windows 95a for around 1 year, got pissed off and moved onto Redhat
> Linux 5.2, then upgraded my machine to a Pentium 200MMX with 64MB Ram,
> installed SuSE Linux 6.0. About a year ago I upgraded to a Pentium 550e and
> SuSE Linux 7.0 Professional, and here I am, next year I plan to either
> upgrade to a SGI O2 workstation or SUN Ultra Sparc Workstation. Compare that
> time line to the typical wintel poster here with the typical story of, "I
> bought a computer, I must be a computer expert" mentality.
>
> This conclusion reached by analysising alf-assed efforts to rebuke the
> superior technology behind Linux.
>
> 6. When a wintel user get defeated by carefully phrased responses, they
> change their names, aka Claire Lynn/Chad/ and any other names you care to
> add.
>
> This conclusion reached by analysing alf-assed efforts to rebuke the
> superior technology behind Linux/UNIX.
>
> kiwiunixman
Very good.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:12:40 -0500
Jacques Guy wrote:
>
> kiwiunixman wrote:
>
> > 3. So-called ex-linux users using the excuse, "it is too hard" as an excuse
> > for not continuing to use Linux. Down the road at my local book store there
> > were hundreds of books, from linux for beginners up to programming linux on
> > servers
>
> That just goes to prove that Linux sux. If it didn't you wouldn't have
> hundreds of books on the shelves: they'd all have been bought out!
FYI: Windows seems to have even more books with titles like "Windows for
dummies" than does Linux. At my local Barns and Noble, there are four
rows of computer books. One 1/6 of one row is dedicated to Linux. 1/3 of
one row is dedicated to "general computing," and, lastly, 1/3 is
dedicated to other like like Macintosh, Amiga, PHP, etc.
That leaves a little more than 3 rows of "* for dummies" books for
Windows.
So, if the number of books available to help the masses is an indication
that the environment sucks, well, then Windows sucks big-time.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:37:35 -0500
Patrick Raymond Hancox wrote:
>
> "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > What do you have to prove with that post? Look at Windows 2000 Pro, 650MB,
> a
> > base installation, compare that to, say, Redhat Linux, which maybe a
> little
> > bigger in size, but includes valuable third party tools such as tar, gzip,
> > and StarOffice.
>
> a single UDMA66 20Gb drive sells for about $180 or so, last i looked. 650Mg
> (which, i'm guessing, includes your page file) is not much of a problem.
Bloat-ware is bloatware, no matter how much it costs.
Bloat is one of the reasons why LoseDOS performance SUCKS!
>
> btw, tar, gzip and StarOffice all work on Win2K (StarOffice suckes as badly
> on win2k as it does otherplatforms)
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Patrick McAllister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: humor
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:38:06 -0500
just thought it was funny...
http://bbspot.com/News/2000/11/linux_bash.html
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: 27 Nov 2000 12:47:29 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Doh. How do you get a trojan onto a unix machine?
> Same mecanism you get one into a win machine.
> Lure the user to open it.
The mere open()ing a file doesn't execute any suspect code, so that won't
work.
> What delivery mecanism MS provides?
> No, win9x gives that to everyone. And it's shit.
And msw9x isn't a MS product?
That's news for me.
> Use NT or better yet, 2000 for a good system.
Which also allow the same delivery mechanism.
At least by default.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?
-- Bertold Brecht
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:01:32 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
kiwiunixman wrote:
[snip]
Dork.
(Just the French gentleman, standing in for Claire, who seems
too busy to answer you. We Frogs are renowned for helping
the ladies, isn't that right, Sir Claire, Twatty Bird
darling?)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:08:43 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
mlw wrote:
> So, if the number of books available to help the masses is an indication
> that the environment sucks, well, then Windows sucks big-time.
Stuff and nonsense. Do you remember the halcyon days of pet rocks?
And you had books galore about how to care for your pet rock?
Did pet rocks suck? How, I ask you, how could a pet rock
possibly suck? All right. So, pet rocks don't suck. You had
books about pet rocks. You have books about Windoze. Therefore,
Windoze does not suck either. Admire the logic of it. Thank you,
thank you, thank you (please, stop pelting me with flowers).
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
Date: 27 Nov 2000 13:10:54 GMT
Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That just goes to prove that Linux sux. If it didn't you wouldn't have
> hundreds of books on the shelves: they'd all have been bought out!
In a capitalist society, the shop would take care of replacing the books. :)
but Sir Claire Lynn is probably going to claim that they need not because
all the books on the shelves are returned by purchasers. And that s/he
has done an experiment by marking these books with a purple marker.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Brain fried -- Core dumped
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Software Engineering (was: Re: C++ is very alive!)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:16:26 -0500
Ketil Z Malde wrote:
>
> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > If I should be so bold, software engineers use tools like C++,
> > programmers use stuff like Java or VB. There is a difference, and it is
> > important to remember.
>
> [list of points]
>
> I don't think that's what differentiates software engineers from the
> crowd. At least to me, software engineering implies knowledge about
> the organization and process required to develop large systems, and to
> ensure quality, progress and documentation necessary to insure, or at
> least, to increase probability of, a correct and complete system
> within given constraints.
>
> Sordid details about AVL-trees are more a computer scientist's domain,
> than a software engineer's, and implementing it is something the
> software engineer might have done as a student excercise, but not in
> the course of work.
I think we pretty much disagree here. Various algorithms are important.
How to develop algorithms and understand their efficiency (or
inefficiencies) and trade-offs are a big part of software engineering.
Knowing how things go together, well, yes that is a very important part
of it, and alas, I was remiss at not mentioning it.
>
> Sure, a software engineer should probably know *about* different
> algorithms and such, but I think most software engineering projects
> would be much better off using off-the-shelf (or -net) libraries or
> higher-level languages, than actually going about implementing hash
> tables in C++.
I have held a number of jobs where knowledge of these things allowed me
to do a lot of cool things.
As for the "off the shelf" solutions. I almost never hear software
developers mention them. Off the self libraries are usually crap. Mind
you I said usually! there are exceptions, however, it has been my
experience that 3rd party libraries need VERY careful evaluation before
acceptance. I have been burnt so many times by stuff like that.
My general rules about 3rd party software are:
Is anyone using it for my type of application?
Do I get the source?
If I do not get the source, I do not use it.
If I get the source, is it well written?
What is the licensing?
What are other products which perform similarly?
How much work is it to use the 3rd product in our our product?
What kind of examples does it come with?
Then you test, really test.
Management sees 3rd part products as an easy win, software people
usually see a 3rd party package as a mine field. I love the idea of
paying $ or downloading time to save man months of work, but it so often
doesn't work out that way. It always seems like a trade off about how
long it will take to write something yourself, vs how long it will take
to get something to work for your application. With a weighting on
writing it yourself, because then you have full control and in-house
expertise.
I am a big fan of the more popular stand-alone packages like PHP,
Apache, Postgres, etc. These are self contained packages which people
are using in the exact same configuration as I. They are knowable
quantities. What scares me is something like "JoeBlow's compression
library." It will be written to be a generic library and only the more
popular aspects of the library will be most tested. Scary.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ is very alive!
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:26:22 -0500
"roger@invaid" wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mlw says...
>
> >
> >I fully understand your point and completely agree, but important
> >concepts are not something you can "look up" they are things you must
> >understand. This is the difference.
> >
>
> But most of your quiz questions were not asking about concepts. It was
> asking about details.
>
> Even concepts could be pushed to the back storage on one's mind after
> years of not using it, but could be brought back to the front after
> some reading.
Yes, but at least you have done it.
>
> >I have to look in a book to remember how shell sort works,
> >but that does not mean I do not understand it.
> >
>
> the above do not make sense. If you understand it, then you must
> know how it works.
OK, here is a simple shell sort C++ template:
void shell(TYPE *array, int n)
{
int i, j;
TYPE t;
int h = 1;
if (n >= 14)
{
while (h < n)
h = 3*h + 1;
h /=9;
}
while (h > 0)
{
for (i = h; i < n; i++)
{
t = array[i];
for (j = i-h; j >= 0 &&
tcomp(array[j],t); j -= h)
array[j+h] = array[j];
array[j+h] = t;
}
h /= 3;
}
}
It always takes me a few minutes to look at this and remember how it
works. It is a clever algorithm, and its operation is not completely
obvious at first. Sorting algorithms are often like this.
Take this:
void three(TYPE *array, COMPARE comp)
{
if(comp((PVOID)&array[0],(PVOID)&array[2])>0)
swap(array[0],array[2]);
if(comp((PVOID)&array[1],(PVOID)&array[2])>0)
swap(array[1], array[2]);
else if(comp((PVOID)&array[0],(PVOID)&array[1])>0)
swap(array[0], array[1]);
}
Why does this work?
The concepts are important to approach these algorithms and be able to
understand them.
> >Should someone not understand the differences between hash tables and
> >AVL trees? Both can be used for the same thing, but why would you use
> >one over the other?
> >
>
> When I have a problem that needs me to know the difference, I lookup it
> up.
If you don't already know the pros/cons of each, how will you know you
need to look it up?
>
> >How would you find the most important colors in a bitmap to create an 8
> >bit palette?
> >
>
> I'll look it up.
where?
>
> Roger
>
>
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:33:27 GMT
"spicerun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> > I've finally gotten whistler (pro, 2296, beta 1), and I'm *liking* it.
>
> I DON'T CARE!!!
>
> I will still continue to run my Linux System which has performed for me better
> than anything MS has ever done.
>
> <EOM>
Head > Sand.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marc Richter)
Subject: Re: Same old Linux..Nothing new here...
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:46:17 -0500
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:38:32 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 03:54:18 GMT, kiwiunixman
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Claire, if you despise many of the Linux distro's you have tried, why
>>don't you release your own distro, Claire Lynn Linux 2000: Made by an
>>idiot, for idiots.
>>
>>kiwiunixman
Actually, Claire, you could just name it "ClaireLynux 2K". After all,
geeks appreciate a good play on words. :-)
For those who want to try something kooky, check out
http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/lfs/LFS/index.html
That's the Linux From Scratch book, which tells you how to build your
own distro from the ground up from source code. Even if it's not
something that you want to do, it gives much insight into the internal
workings of a distro.
>
>And you can be my first Beta tester.
>
Hey, if you build it, I will test.
>claire
Hope y'all had a good Thanksgiving (or, for our overseas folks, a nice
Thursday)
--
Marc A. Richter I&R Deployed Support
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:34:41 GMT
"Glitch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> Tom Elam wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 02:30:51 +0200, Tom Elam wrote this reply to "Ayende
> > Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > >For now, I think that there is a good chance that Whistler will be as good
> > >from win2k as win2k was from NT.
> >
> > That would make it a pretty impressive piece of software.
> >
>
> yep, only 2 crashes per day instead of 5, and only 5 employees angry for
> their work being lost instead of 10 employees.
You idiots are all the same. You used Windows back in the Win3.0 days,
realized it was shit, and then never used another Windows again, but
held every version to that standard.
NT is far superior, Win2K even more, and Whistler just that much more.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:12:07 +0200
"Andres Soolo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8vtl51$8bk$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> Doh. How do you get a trojan onto a unix machine?
> > Same mecanism you get one into a win machine.
> > Lure the user to open it.
> The mere open()ing a file doesn't execute any suspect code, so that won't
> work.
>
> > What delivery mecanism MS provides?
> > No, win9x gives that to everyone. And it's shit.
> And msw9x isn't a MS product?
> That's news for me.
First sentence is asking about the dilivery mecanism
Second sentence is talking about giving everyboyd a root-like permissions.
> > Use NT or better yet, 2000 for a good system.
> Which also allow the same delivery mechanism.
> At least by default.
What delivery mechanism?
------------------------------
From: kiwiunixman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:04:53 GMT
Add 34 real media files, development programs, games, office suite and
other assorted goodies, and there ya go, almost full.
kiwiunixman
Patrick Raymond Hancox wrote:
> "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> What do you have to prove with that post? Look at Windows 2000 Pro, 650MB,
>
> a
>
>> base installation, compare that to, say, Redhat Linux, which maybe a
>
> little
>
>> bigger in size, but includes valuable third party tools such as tar, gzip,
>> and StarOffice.
>
>
> a single UDMA66 20Gb drive sells for about $180 or so, last i looked. 650Mg
> (which, i'm guessing, includes your page file) is not much of a problem.
>
> btw, tar, gzip and StarOffice all work on Win2K (StarOffice suckes as badly
> on win2k as it does otherplatforms)
------------------------------
From: "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Off Topic: Funny Light Bulb Joke:
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:05:49 GMT
Q: How many people does it take to change a light bulb in cyberspace?
A: 1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the list
that the light bulb has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the
light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs.
53 to flame the spell checkers.
156 to write complaining about the light bulb discussion and its
inappropriateness to the list.
41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take
this exchange to alt.lite.bulb.
203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling, and
alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
111 to defend the postings, saying that, "We are all using light bulbs
and therefore the posts are relevant to this list."
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to
buy the best light bulbs, what brands of light bulbs work best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty.
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and to post corrected
URLs.
3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to the
list, which makes light bulbs relevant to the list.
33 to collate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
and footers, and then add "Me too."
19 to quote the "Me toos" to say, "Me three."
45 suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
47 to say that this is just what this list was meant for, leave it here.
38 proclaiming the advantages in using vintage light bulbs.
1 to post that the bulb used was CRAP and challenging the INTELLIGENT of
the other posters
_________________________________________________________________
kiwiunixman
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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