Linux-Advocacy Digest #506, Volume #30 Tue, 28 Nov 00 15:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: KDE2 (Matthias Warkus)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Is design really that overrated? ("the_blur")
Re: Ok, putting money where my mouth is... ("the_blur")
Statistic about this bigot group (Gerson Kurz)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("PLZI")
Re: Whistler review. ("tony roth")
Re: Whistler review. (Josiah Fizer)
Re: Statistic about this bigot group ("Frank Van Damme")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:42:38 +0200
"J.C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:47:59 +0200, Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >Then why did you say this "Try to get 2k boxes up to
> >(okay, sorry, somewhere-remotely-distantly-approaching)..."
> >Thus implying that Win2K isn't a good system.
>
> ... and for me, it isn't. It just isn't up to Solaris' or BSD's standards.
There
> _are_ people out there who've got 2k down as a good server for something
or the
> other, or as a good desktop. I don't care -- and there are millions of
sysadmins
> who agree with me in my saying that NT/2k just isn't up to Unix's
standard.
That wasn't what you said.
You didn't say "for me", you talking about the system as general.
> >> "Development Considerations"? 2k has "a slight advantage" due to "its
high
> >degree of
> >> integration". Phooey. I don't want shit integrated with more shit. I
> >_like_ the relatively
> >> compartmentalized nature of Unix/clones.
> >>
> >> Clustering? In all the passages containing `clustering', it was either
a
> >tie, or Solaris came
> >> up on top...
> >
> >TPC disagree with you.
>
> Should I care? Is Mr. TPC a Unix admin? (*sigh*, that's sarcasm...)
>
> Why should I trust TPC over my own judgement?
Because it's a test that has been created by unix corporations?
> >> (can I secure a Solaris box, even though ACLs aren't implemented?
Yes...)
> >
> >Who claimed that you can't?
>
> It wasn't an issue. I was just pointing it out. Did I mention anywhere
that anyone claimed
> that I couldn't?
Asking the question implies it.
> >ACL are better then the grouping permissions because they allow much more
> >control on the permissions you are delegating.
>
> Fair enough. NT/2k would be even worse off without it, I suppose...
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
> >Please don't compare NT & 2K on terms or reliablity, security, and...
well,
> >practically anything.
> >In doing so, you reveal your ignorance about it.
>
> Don't reduce this to personal attacks. In any case, I find NT and 2k to be
on
> a par as far as stability and security are concerned. So maybe your
experience
> is different... should I care? I only care about what's relevant to _my_
job,
> and my empirical observations of NT _AND_ 2k is that they both suck.
I'm sorry, I've been up for too long.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:46:29 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:45:18
> >I know what made me use IE, and it wasn't product bundling.
> >It was IE (version 4 and upward) being superior from Netscape (4.XX, I'm
> >downloading 6 right now)
>
> So it was the technical tying, rather than the actual bundled
> distribution, which is why you use IE?
What technical tying?
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:50:13 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 02:33:16
> [...]
> >When was it, exactly?
> >Because prior to late 1998, Netscape *was* a monopoly in the browsers
> >market.
>
> Well, they were the market leader, and had well over 50% of the market.
> But that has nothing to do with being a monopoly. It is
> anti-competitive behavior, not market share, which makes a monopoly.
No, a monopoly is a monopoly whetever it abuse it power or not.
> >MS didn't have a fighting chance in the browser market until IE4. And the
> >reason that I moved to IE wasn't because he was better, it was because
> >Netscape was bloated and heavy and buggy.
> >I don't think that I would've moved if they were of comparable quality.
>
> I'm not going to bother trying to convince you that your ability to
> determine the quality of a piece of software is obviously flawed. I can
> even agree with the sentiment that Netscape was (is) bloated, heavy, and
> buggy. But the last version of IE which could avoid the same, and
> worse, label was before version 3; since then, they've been equally fat
> and stupid. IE just has the added disadvantage of being monopoly
> crapware.
Netscape 6 ate 65MB of my RAM in less than 30 Minutes of *very* light
operating. It only released them after I *terminated* it. Simply closing the
program didn't work, it stayed in memory.
OE & IE has yet to take 65MB of my RAM from 30 minutes of heavy surfing.
OE occationally does this, but this is when handling tens or hundreds of
thousands of messages.
And it *release* them, something which netscape apperantly refuse to
understand.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:31:20 +0100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:55:58 +0100...
...and Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > I think this piece of software (KDE2) will help a lot
> > > > > to bring several desktop Windows users to GNU/Linux.
> > > > > Welcome to new distributions with 2.4 and KDE2 by
> > > > > default (I consider GNOME inferior nowadays)
> > > >
> > > > Why?
> > >
> > > - Crashes a lot
> >
> > What in GNOME crashes a lot? I haven't seen any non-alpha GNOME stuff
> > crash in months.
>
> The panel; the applets; the filemanager. amazingly not the Gnome apps i
> use but the enviroment itself .
Which version are you using? Can you give me some more information
about your system configuration?
> > > - programmed in C (Jeeezzz in this day and age )
> >
> > What's wrong about C?
>
> Whats wrong about assembler i might ask. Lots of things have happened with
> computer science since C was created. The most important IMHO is OO and C
> is just not up to the task.... its too close to the machine so it makes it
> diffcult to think abstract with it.
Oh really. Have you done any GTK+ development?
> > > - Inferiour toolkit
> >
> > How so?
>
> It was created as an exercise by one of the Gimps programmers as interface
> tool for the Gimp....
It was created as a Motif replacement. What you mean by "an exercise"
and "an interface tool" is not very clear to me.
> I think that the reason why Gnome uses it was that
> Miguel couldnt find anything else.
Exactly. It was the best free toolkit available.
> > > - KDE clone
> >
> > Bullshit.
>
> Most emulates KDE.... Panel , desktop menu (yeah.. KDE2 was first with it
> in early develpment), control center..
Yeah sure. If that's what you call cloning or emulation, you shouldn't
work with any third-generation window manager at all. Why don't you go
back to plain Bowman or such? But surely there've been window managers
doing panels, desktop menus and such before Bowman. Good luck on your
quest for the original inventor of the desktop menu ;)
> But why even wonder since it was Gnome was intende as an alternative to KDE
As an alternative, not as a clone.
> > > - Overhyped
> >
> > Bullshit.
>
> Sure... version 1.0 was released even though it probably just could qualify
> as an early beta compared to KDE 1 releases.... Despite that Miguel went
> around promoting it as "the standart desktop og the Linux enviroment" and
> lots of journalists just swallowed it rat
> > > - MS copyers
> >
> > Bullshit.
> Hmmm... so OLE and COM dont influence Gnome a lot?
They influence GNOME as much as they influenced KDE. Face it, any
modern component object model is going to look a bit like OLE/COM
since all the component stuff stems from SOM and OpenDoc via CORBA.
> Whats that i am hearing about Visual Basic and Gnumeric?
Well, there's going to be a sandboxed VB interpreter to aid importing
of legacy Excel documents. How's that "copying MS"?
BTW: How is copying MS bad?
> > > - Miguel
> >
> > Right.
> >
> > > - American product
> >
> > How so?
>
> Its mainly developed in the Americas.... i have the impression that fast
> talk is very important in that region of the world
If you've got the impression that it's different elsewhere, you need a
reality check. Over here in Germany (a/k/a KDEland), it's KDE who are
doing the fast talking and who are being overhyped. The reason why I,
as a German, don't support KDE and came to working for the GNOME
project is that I wanted to keep KDE from monopolising the Linux
desktop.
mawa
--
Sometimes Usenet makes me feel like a crossbreed of Don Giovanni and
the Sorcerer's Apprentice; while around me something I created is
making all kinds of mess, I want to yell "Enough! Enough!" and wait
for the devil to get me.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:03:00 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:29:10
> >You have to all of this this for each extention individually, as this is
the
> >way File Types works
>
> LOL. That's just the way they work, huh? No sense complaining about
> having to do each extention individually; that's an integral part of the
> very nature of File Types.
"File Types", not file types.
File Types is the Tabbed Dialog that handle this.
It's an application that provide some basic interface to handling file types
in windows.
> >But I don't see any reason why you couldn't build a tool that would do
this
> >for several extentions at a time.
>
> You can; several people already have. They suck about as much as the
> system itself.
No, the tools sucks, the system works, it's flexible, it's easy to
understand and work with.
> >If you so wish, I can attach the code of a simple application that will
do
> >this.
>
> A "simple application" isn't going to do it, kid.
To assosiate multiply file types with an existing or new file type?
You consider this a non-simple task?
Wow!
Makes you wonder what you think is hard.
> >That the application that you've used may be badly designed, that I can
> >understand, there is no lack of badly designed applications.
>
> No, it is the OS, and the extension/file type/associtiation part, that
> sucks, there's nothing the apps can do about it. Save deal with it
> well, which of course none of them do, following Microsoft's lead.
> Don't you remember? This is computing for dummies; you fail to see why
> I wouldn't just want the software to "take care of it for me", so why on
> earth would I want to do it. Its not One Microsoft Way, after all;
> what's the point?
>
> >I just don't see how you reached the conclustion that because the tool
you
> >used wasn't good enough for you, the entire system isn't good.
>
> I didn't say the entire system isn't good. I said its a piece of crap.
I'm getting tried of talking to fanatic.
Bye.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:13:09 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:39:23
> >For example, a program that rip CD-Audio has every reason in the world to
> >add itself as an alternative to the CD-Audio menu.
>
> Add itself as an alternative? I thought you said they had "every
> right"; why on earth would anyone want their app to be an alternative?
Because ripping CD-Audio is not a common task with CDs.
The player should be the default, the ripper as an alternative.
And I never said "every right", I said it has "every reason" to do so.
If you are going to qoute me, at least do it correctly.
I don't comment about the rest as I'm tried of talking to fanatics.
The obivious resort to this would be that I'm fanatic as well, which may or
may not be the case (and this will also encounrage people to post saying I
am a fanatic, no may abou it), but at least I am willing to talk to the
other side and listen to what they are saying.
------------------------------
From: "the_blur" <the_blur_oc@*removespamguard*hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is design really that overrated?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:17:25 -0500
> What would be a trendy design for the BSOD?
They can't possibly match the style and panache of our own KDE segfault
dialog. I've seen that dialog so many times, I can sketch it from memory at
this point =) I love drawing gears and bombs!
The BSOD pales in comparison.
------------------------------
From: "the_blur" <the_blur_oc@*removespamguard*hotmail.com>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Ok, putting money where my mouth is...
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:27:04 -0500
> Great, Fred. So instead of "improving" the operating system, I
> can waste time reading your message. I don't particularly give
> a good goddamn either, what the KDE or GNOME projects' perspective
> is about the penguin. AFAIK, they simply went ahead and devised
> their own logos, which is just fine with me. Linux is the work
> of the people who wrote it, and so is KDE, GNOME, etc., ad
> infinitum, not yours...., and I could almost guarantee you that
> they don't care what you think. But I don't speak for them, as
> you've presumed to do here.
Hehe, you were gonna read my message anyway, and you know it =) Otherwise
you could just put me on your killfile and never have to hear my inane
arguments again. I invite you to do so now.
But, where did I presume to speak for anyone but myself (aside from the
little HID bit) ?
Gotta love that Linux community spirit eh? =)
Cheers!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: Statistic about this bigot group
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:25:24 GMT
I evaluated 1335 mails including the heavy traffic threads "Of course
there is a downside" and "The sixth sense". This is a list of the top
ten newsreaders used to post messages. If you're interested I can post
the source, or a complete list for this group (my server currently
holds ~4100 messages but I didn't care enough for downloading them
all).
34 Users - MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
34 Users - slrn/0.9.6.2 (NetBSD)
36 Users - Mozilla/4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-21mdksmp i686)
44 Users - Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
82 Users - Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
90 Users - slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux)
91 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
121 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
126 Users - Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U)
268 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Of course, you're all on WINE, right ? Yeah sure.
------------------------------
From: "PLZI" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:29:20 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said PLZI in alt.destroy.microsoft on Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:40:04 GMT;
> >
> >I do not know anything about US legal system - so I might say I'm the most
> >impartial person in the world.
>
> I don't know anything about calculus - so I might say I'm the greatest
> nuclear physicist in the world.
Bad analogy error. Bring one of those federal judges here in Finland, and
let's see what he can do or say or rule. Bring one physicist, and for some,
unknown reason, I tend to believe what he has to say. US Legal system is for
US. US laws are for US, albeit the US government likes to play tha game
called "world police". Calculus does not care about countries, flags or
borders.
> >Federal judge? Now what is that? Never seen
> >one, never heard about one, and you come and tell me they are impartial.
> >Right. Watch me not get impressed.
>
> Well, here's a clue: they do it professionally, and had to have been
> doing it for a good number of years, well, before they get to their
> current position. In contrast to a few trolls on Usenet, I'd say
> they're a bit more impressive than you are.
For you, that is. Not for me. Never seen one. Yawn.
> >And for the record - I truly am pro-MS. I'm also pro-Unix, pro-BeOS,
pro-VMS,
> >pro-MVS and pro-DOS. I like computers. I like software. I like computing
in
> >general.
>
> Me, too. Which is why I am anti-MS.
Hmm, right. You forgot to mention paranoid and hateful.
> >I did not say in my posts, that Unix is bad. By the same token, I do not
say
> >MS software is bad. They all have their weaknesses, but all in all,
operating
> >systems all have their merits. I tend to stick to the merits side - what I
> >can do with given system. And what system fits my needs best.
>
> Again, you seem to be trying hard to redirect the discussion onto
> technical grounds. But MS software *sucks* on technical grounds. So
> where's the discussion?
I went over the technical part in the beginning. I am *still* waiting your
response.
> >This is where you and I differ. You use your time talking about how bad
> >things are.
>
> No, I waste my time talking to people who don't have a clue how bad
> things already are, and how much better they will be when there is a
> free market.
>
> >You also automagically say that everything MS does, is bad -
> >without really giving any alternatives.
>
> Funny how that works; there is no alternative readily acceptable to the
> market which could replace Windows. So...
Please explain. I am *still* waiting those pesky little technical details.
> >Of course it is, but not about the MS being a monopoly or not. As it says.
It
> >is a answer to question: "tea or coffee?" - "neither, thanks." Now which
one
> > I do like more, tea or coffee?
>
> Which do you prefer, obeying the law or breaking the law?
Now that wouldn't be the US Law you're referring to? Sorry, I'm Finnish.
> "Neither,
> thanks." Which unfortunately means that it wouldn't bother you at all
> to break the law, thus answering the question.
I really could not be less interested in the laws of US. I'm ready to obey
the local laws.
> Tea or coffee, indeed.
Monopoly or not a monopoly. That is what we call "freedom of choice". I could
of course be in great trouble, should I ignore the law. But that is a choice
as well. Your analogy, as usual, is in error. From my point of view, the US
government has ruled in MS case. I do not live under the US govern. So this
has absolutely *nothing* to do with me. You people sue each other for too hot
coffee or whatever you like. You also let killers walk free, because they
have the money to twist the legal system for their needs. Come on, tell me
that the US legal system is the best in the world and impartial as hell. I am
*this* close believing you.
> >> >I leave the suing of companies and people to the US of A.
> >> >I'm simply talking the technical merits of the platform.
> >>
> >> So am I.
> >
> >You still did not answer in any way to my list about the Things Needed To
Be
> >Done. No, you are not talking about the technical merits, sorry.
>
> Things Needed To Be Done:
>
> 1) Stop monopolizing
> 2) Compete
> 3) Attempt to remain profitable, modifying product as necessary
>
> Instant technical merits.
Care to write a RFC about that? Submit it to the IETF.
> >> >This always seems to
> >> >be the last line fo defense - when nobody comes up with the answers,
> >> >everybody always defaults to "but ms is the evil empire!" - line in the
> >end.
> >> >Sad.
> >>
> >> It would be, if it were true. Generally, after explaining why the
> >> platform has no technical merits, to speak of, the kind of posturing you
> >> are doing is used to try to avoid the response you get, which explains
> >> that the reason it sucks is that it is monopoly crapware.
> >
> >And the "no technical merits" -explanation was in there....where?
>
> Generally, just after whatever technical merits are being assumed.
>
> >Things are
> >not bad, just because one says they are bad.
>
> Ooh, a post-modern argument. How will I ever cope?
>
>
> >> You can
> >> continue to play your children's games, or you can get some brains and
> >> learn how to use them.
> >
> >Somehow I like these witty "fuck you, you're an idiot because I say
> >so" -remarks. Please feel free to continue. And tell me about children's
> >games while you're at it.
>
> Nice passive-aggressive retort. Grow up.
Mmm, somehow this does not apply to you? And i was only rephrasing.
> >> I don't mind when people entirely ignorant of all this stuff say "I
> >> don't care."
> >
> >I don't care about anything which is besides the point. I care about
getting
> >the job done.
>
> Well, if the job has anything to do with recognizing crappy software
> when you see it, you've failed pretty miserably.
I was not aware that this was a test? You have *still* not given a SINGLE
technical explanation. You go on about crappy software, on and on and on, and
yet we're still to see even ONE item on my original list.
> >Time to contribute, would you still like to go over my list and
> >give some examples about how these things can be done in other platforms,
and
> >Better (tm)?
>
> Why can't you get one sentence out without sounding passive aggressive.
> "Better (tm)?" What's up with that?
Huh? Like, did you just avoid (again) my question with a very, very, very
lame excuse? Trademarking is a form of satire, from my part. You can stuff
these 5c psychological analyzes back where they came from. Now, that would
propably be "active aggressive", now would it not?
> >
> >...or sound like a broken record. Come on, you have brains, you claim you
do.
> >Go over the list, give us examples of technologies which enable us to do
> >things better, easier and whatnot. I dare you.
>
> Your list is pointless carping about details and acronyms. What makes
> you think that any and all of this couldn't easily be done on any other
> system? Christ, haven't you ever heard of Java? You're just giving
> Microsoft credit for your ability to use computers, entirely.
So, you do not have the skills or information necessary to even understand
what I outlined in that list? You should have said so in the first place.
"Java"? What has one programming language has to do with anything I described
in that list? Any item on that list can be done with java (or the J++
variety). Or visual basic. Or cobolscript. Or C. What the hell the
syntactical sugar of any given language has to do with the platform-specific
or inter-platform operations?
You could have just told me, that you do not even know what we are talking
about. Would have made things whole lotta easier.
- PLZI
------------------------------
From: "tony roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:06:38 -0800
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
sniped all of aarons bs
anyway the following would be absurd if true! But its not!
>And they STILL can't get file-access right. There is NO WAY to do a
>complete backup of a windows machine, because there is no "open file
>for READING" option.... Thus, any .exe or .dll file that is in use
>CANNOT BE BACKED UP.
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
------------------------------
From: Josiah Fizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:50:30 -0800
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tony roth wrote:
> sniped all of aarons bs
>
> anyway the following would be absurd if true! But its not!
>
> >And they STILL can't get file-access right. There is NO WAY to do a
> >complete backup of a windows machine, because there is no "open file
> >for READING" option.... Thus, any .exe or .dll file that is in use
> >CANNOT BE BACKED UP.
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
It can be true at times. Files can be locked so that another task cant
read them. It is very application spacific however, most database servers
as an example will lock the DB files.
------------------------------
From: "Frank Van Damme" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Statistic about this bigot group
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:00:57 +0000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Gerson Kurz"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<scissors doing their job>
> 34 Users - MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
> 34 Users - slrn/0.9.6.2 (NetBSD)
> 36 Users - Mozilla/4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-21mdksmp i686)
> 44 Users - Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
> 82 Users - Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
> 90 Users - slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux)
> 91 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
> 121 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
> 126 Users - Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U)
> 268 Users - Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
>
> Of course, you're all on WINE, right ? Yeah sure.
And where is Pan???????
--
Never underestimate the power of Linux-Mandrake
7.2 on an AMD K7 800 / 128.
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