Linux-Advocacy Digest #506, Volume #31 Tue, 16 Jan 01 12:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? (Donn Miller)
ipchains problem (Zen)
Re: A salutary lesson about open source ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance ("Chad Myers")
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? ("Chad Myers")
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? ("Chad Myers")
Re: TCO challenge: [was Linux 2.4 Major Advance] ("Chad Myers")
Re: KDE Hell (Donovan Rebbechi)
Some things are easier in Linux (Mark)
Re: More Linux woes (Nick Condon)
Re: More Linux woes (Nick Condon)
Re: More Linux woes (Nick Condon)
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: More Linux woes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is INFERIOR to Windows (John Hasler)
Re: KDE Hell (Roberto Alsina)
Re: More Linux woes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS-X GUI on Linux?
Date: 16 Jan 2001 08:38:47 -0600
Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> What the heck is wrong with trying alternative windowing/graphics
>> systems on Linux other than X11?
> I don't know if it's anything wrong with it, but I remain unconvinced
> there's anything beneficial either. Specifically, I don't think using
> SVGAlib or fbdev (which, btw, are there for the picking) is going to
> be measurably faster than using X.
I think I went a little overboard there. X has a very good design. I think
that developing new/alternative graphics systems or GUIs would be more
academic exercize than actually providing anything beneficial. There are
certain situations where I find svgalib to be beneficial over X. Like, for
example, if I am doing something CPU intensive, plus I want to stay at the
command-line, I think it would be overkill to fire up X just to run Netscape,
and then exit 2 minutes later. Having a svgalib browser would help for those
graphics apps that you run extremely sparingly, where you don't really want
to fire up X. It wouldn't have to be a necessarily sophisticated browser,
but a low-fat, light-weight browser capable of displaying a little more than
w3m or lynx show me. No doubt somebody's already tried this.
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------------------------------
From: Zen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: ipchains problem
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 22:40:53 +0800
I have 2 machines, both were installed Turbolinux, and also installed
ipchains 1.3.10.
In Machine A(192.168.1.10), I have configured Apache, and also pointed
to Machine B(192.168.1.20) for LAN, and Machine B was pointed to the
router, it means that the Machine B can be connect to internet directly.
And now, I want to forward the Apache service from Machine A(port 80) to
Machine B(port 81), and I tried as:
> ipchains -A input -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 -j ACCEPT
> ipchains -P forward ACCEPT
> ipchains -A forward -p tcp -s 192.168.1.10 80 -d 192.168.1.20 81 -j
MASQ
and then I tried to use lynx 192.168.1.20 to establish the connect to
the Apache, but it didn't work, can anyone tell me why this happened?
Thanks for any helps!
Zen.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:34:18 GMT
"Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:OZP86.2713$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:DQC86.3397$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:a9y86.159$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:Yfp86.2938$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, it shows how difficult it *IS* to find backdoors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It took them 6 months to find this backdoor, with thousands of
> people
> > > > > > looking at the source code.
> > > > >
> > > > > Per my other post, there are exactly 35 developers on the Firebird
> > > project.
> > > > > Some of them have joined relatively recently. SourceForge shows
> that
> > > no one
> > > > > has downloaded their pre-release kits yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your "thousands of people" are as vaprous as closed-source security
> is.
> > > >
> > > > But what about the thousands who supposedly review Linux. From
> > > developers,
> > > > to watchdog groups, to tinkerers, you'd think most of the obvious
> bugs
> > > would
> > > > be flushed out immediately. However, every shipping Linux release
> from
> > > > all major distributors still comes riddled with security exploits not
> to
> > > > mention all other bugs. If Open Source is so superior, and all this
> > > > peer review actually happens as you people say, then how are these
> > > glaring
> > > > bugs slipping through so frequently?
> > >
> > > Its' impossible for all bugs to be rooted out of a large software
> project.
> > > Only the most glaring and obvious show up quickly. It takes time for
> the
> > > more subtle ones to present themselves. With open source, the option
> exists
> > > to patch them as they come along as opposed to placing a bug report
> with a
> > > vendor and counting on them to actually heed it and provide a patch in
> a
> > > timely manner (or in some cases at all).
> >
> > So basically you're saying that Open Source offers no advantage for large
> > projects? This is basically what I've been saying all along.
>
> No, I'm pointing out something that should be obvious - There's no perfect
> system. I, indeed pointed out an advantage to open source, though. You
> neglected to quote the whole response.
You may not be saying that OSS is perfect, but others are implying that.
They are implying that OSS is superior to everything else and that there
is NO reason why you WOULDN'T want to use OSS.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:35:07 GMT
"J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
>
> > I wish you people would stop joining into the middle of the
> > thread and misquoting me.
> >
> > He said that ReiserFS was shipping, which is a lie.
>
> "Shipping with SuSE" sure sounds like "shipping" to me.
The 2.4 kernel was "shipping" with certain distributions for
trial a few months ago, did that mean that the 2.4 kernel was
released/shipping?
Give me a break.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:36:46 GMT
"J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
>
> > I don't really consider Mindcraft or ZDNet major industry benchmarks,
> > necessarily. While relevant, TPC and similar industry benchmarks
> > are more reliable and standards based.
> >
> > c't is just FUD all around no matter what they're comparing.
>
> Spoken like a loyal wintroll -
>
> c't is one of the few magazines that don't worship ms.
On the contrary, they spare nothing to attack it. At least Register,
the 3rd most FUD magazine gives MS credit where credit is due on
occasion.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:38:38 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 02:14:37 GMT, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:31:34 GMT, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >> Said Chad Myers in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:19:13
> >> >> >"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >> >> Chad Myers wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> [snip]
> [deletia]
> >> >my storage needs would be (how to properly set up mac connectivity,
> >> >how to best squeeze file serving performance from Linux, etc).
> >> >
> >> >It was then that I learned that Linux couldn't handle >2GB files on
> >> >a 32-bit platform (something that it still has a problem with today!).
> >>
> >> Considering that Alphas still stop all over IA32 based machines
> >> in terms of floating point (and digital media tends to be
> >> chock full of floating point calcs), actually getting an Alpha
> >> for the job wouldn't be such a stupid thing to do.
> >
> >Like I said, I was looking for a relatively inexpensive solution,
> >which is why Linux was in the running.
>
> Compared to a PC suitable for video production, an Alpha
> based system really isn't that much more expensive.
> Furthermore, Alpha and Sparc based systems have been
> available in the PC price range for longer than you've
> been trolling this newsgroup.
>
> >
> >If I was going to buy a bunch of big, expensive hardware, I
> >wouldn't have bothered with Linux in the first place.
> >
> >
> >> Thus, restricting the hardware to '32 bit' is entirely arbitrary
> >> on your part and specifically designed to yield the failure that
> >> you really wanted.
> >>
> >> [deletia]
> >>
> >> FILM QUALITY PRODUCTION VIDEO has been done under Linux, so
> >> a few TV clips shouldn't be a problem.
> >
> >They either had to clip everything to approx 15-minute segments
>
> So? What's the real problem with that.
<sigh> That question alone proves you have no concept of what
we're talking about.
We don't have all the time in the world.
<SNIP the rest, because it's irrelevant because you have no clue>
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: TCO challenge: [was Linux 2.4 Major Advance]
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:40:35 GMT
"J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Conrad Rutherford wrote:
>
> > > Painful as it is, we need to acknowledge that Unix
> > > is by far the superior server platform, and will most
> > > likely always be so.
> >
> > But it's not and obviously you are not the "windows lover" you claim to be.
>
> Ah, how could I not love windows? but come now, let's
> be honest, it does crash quite often, and the performance
> as a server will most likely never approach that of Unix,
> especially Linux or FreeBSD.
>
> I cheered along with the rest of you when windows finally
> got close to Linux in the specweb benchmarks. Still lagging
> a little, but respectable. But then we all found out that they
> used a special web cache in front of their web server to
> try to get it to run as fast as Linux. Sad, sad state of affairs.
>
> Let's be honest, windows has it's place, but it will never
> replace Linux, and honestly, it shouldn't even try.
Replace Linux? ROFL..
Linux isn't anywhere. It's Linux that has the uphill battle. Windows
is everywhere and not giving up any market share to anyone.
Linux is growing, but only by taking share away from other useless
Unixes.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Date: 16 Jan 2001 15:31:58 GMT
On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:41:46 GMT, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Your opinion is worthless, in this matter.
>
>Well, I have been a teacher. My opinion on what's good for beginning
>programmers has some value.
I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that it's essential to
teach to have a good idea as to what works for beginning programmers.
Of course, an experienced programmer, who has to learn syntax for
several different languages, can understand what kinds of languages are
easy to learn syntax-wise. But some questions (for example, "is it
better to learn procedural first or OO first" ?) are impossible
to answer unless one can compare the experiences of others (eg
students)
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark)
Subject: Some things are easier in Linux
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:58:47 GMT
Hi,
I'd like to offer a small story to illustrate how some things are much
easier using Linux.
I recently subscribed to a cable modem service. When I spoke to the
customer service drone on the telephone, I asked if they supported
Linux. They said absolutely not, the modem probably won't work with
Linux, and they offer no support even if it does.
I didn't believe them, so I went ahead and ordered the service. The
company offer free installation, so a 'techie' arrived at my house
with all the equipment ready to install. I asked him if he would
connect it to the Linux server, but he refused, so I let him connect
it to one of the Windows PCs. He then proceeded to do the network
setup in Windows. 45 minutes and at least 3 reboots later the PC was
connected to the internet and I said a fond farewell to my techie.
As soon as he left, I unplugged the modem from the Windows PC and
plugged it into the Linux PC. In Linux I simply ran dhcpcd and named,
et voila, it was connected. Less that a minute and no reboots.
It took another half hour or so to configure the Windows PCs to route
through the Linux server to the internet (and both had to be
rebooted).
It took maybe as much as 30 minutes to write a quick ipchains script
to firewall the system.
With such an incredibly simple process, why do ISPs refuse point blank
to support Linux? Is it a fear of the unknown? A false assumption that
'it's Linux so it must be difficult'? Surely it can't be that
expensive to send a few techies on a basic Linux networking course?
------------------------------
From: Nick Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:12:24 +0000
David Steinberg wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> : I have not found a way to turn this off under Linux, and as you can
> : imagine this puts a tremendous load on the system.
>
> Right. So which of the cd players that I suggested did you try?
>
> Put up or shut up.
>
> Do you want to solve a problem, or do you want to spread anti-Linux
> progaganda?
I think it's fair to say that anyone who continually posts this kind of stuff
to an advocacy group instead of, say, comp.os.linux.questions has no genuine
interest in solving their problems. You wouldn't even need access to a Linux
system, you could just repeat other peoples problems from all kinds of online
sources.
I hope flatfish is paid well for his contributions because doing this for a
hobby would be very, very sad. Haven't you got any friends to go and play with?
------------------------------
From: Nick Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:22:45 +0000
Kyle Jacobs wrote:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > ...then there's that NSA version of Linux...
>
> This would explain the Mars polar lander problem.
ROFLMAO!
Damn. Now I'm going to have to clean all that coffee off my monitor.
------------------------------
From: Nick Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:24:36 +0000
Todd wrote:
> Linux *is* too hard to use - Linux will *never* replace Windows on the
> desktop if Linux users have this attitude.
The desktop is dying, anyway. The future is embedded, where Linux dominates
already.
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:39:44 +0100
Chad Myers wrote:
> The 2.4 kernel was "shipping" with certain distributions for
> trial a few months ago, did that mean that the 2.4 kernel was
> released/shipping?
>
> Give me a break.
>
You are for sure the dumbest asshole I've read since month.
What kernel 2.4 was shipping with certain distris? It was released just a
few days ago, so it could not ship. What was shipped were clearly marked
prerelease kernels, in no single distribution it was installed by default,
you had to compile it etc etc.
But you are mentally just not equipped to grasp this.
So, give us a break and go back playing with your wintendo-thingy
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:47:50 GMT
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:34:48 +0500, "Gary Hallock"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not particularly. But don't worry. I'll tell Lou of your concerns next
>time I talk with him. It's just too bad you just a little over a week
>late. I would have told him how you feel when he dropped by my office a
>week ago.
>
>Gary
I would have loved to have spoken to him
I hope you asked him why "he" has a contract and you don't?
I hope you asked him why your benefits got changed to a "Cash Balance
Plan" and why there is a class action suit against IBM for age
discrimination doing such.
I hope you asked him about being investigated in Europe for fraud
relating to employee benefits "creative accounting" practices.
But I doubt you did, because despite the probability you are a fine
engineer, you are unfortunately, one of the sheep heading to the
slaughter and just by making a statement like "I met Lou" solidifies
the point. I thought that type of IBM 'er was long since gone in one
of the annual company purges?
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ibmunion
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ibmpension
For interesting reading :)
Yes, I'd love to talk to Lou for a while :)
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Linux is INFERIOR to Windows
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:44:05 GMT
Jedi writes:
> Two Words: "Windows Sockets"
So what?
1) Using code in compliance with the terms set by the owner of the
copyright is not copyright infringement (and copyright infringement is
not stealing).
2) It is impossible to copyright a work already copyrighted by someone
else (and attempting to register a fraudulent copyright is a crime).
3) Copyrighting a derivative has no effect on the rights held by the owners
of the original.
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:45:41 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:41:46 GMT, Roberto Alsina wrote:
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >> Your opinion is worthless, in this matter.
> >
> >Well, I have been a teacher. My opinion on what's good for beginning
> >programmers has some value.
>
> I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that it's essential to
> teach to have a good idea as to what works for beginning programmers.
> Of course, an experienced programmer, who has to learn syntax for
> several different languages, can understand what kinds of languages are
> easy to learn syntax-wise. But some questions (for example, "is it
> better to learn procedural first or OO first" ?) are impossible
> to answer unless one can compare the experiences of others (eg
> students)
Indeed. That's why I usually suggest Python. It's OO, but it's not
we-will-force-OOP-on-you-until-we-can-OOP-no-more OO.
In my experience (which in this area is not big), a procedural thing
with a gentle touch of OOP is good.
But if you teach them, say, C (extreme example ;-), which is just
unsuited for OOP, you might get them to grok procedural, but you leave
them no escape route.
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:06:28 GMT
On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 07:44:54 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Yes, however the user chose to configure this system caused this
>problem. My system does not do this, nor do others on this group. It is
>not a Linux problem, it is an application issue.
I didn't configure anything.
If I unplug the digital and analog cables from the CD and Soundcard,
meaning the ONLY CABLE PLUGGED IN IS THE IDE CABLE, I STILL GET SOUND,
meaning the transfer is going over the IDE BUS.
Also, as far as the mixer app is concerned, the only slider (except
for the master) that has any effect is the ANALOG one, NOT the DIGITAL
ONE.
If I mute the ANALOG Slider the sound mutes.
>If you run "cdplay" to start the cdplayer playing, then adjust the sound
>using the very nice graphical mixer program it will work fine.
Same thing happens.
So HOW DO I TURN OFF DAE so I can transfer audio over one of the
little cables (both the analog and digital one are hooked up) instead
of clogging my BUS streaming digital audio to my sound card?
EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION DOES THE SAME THING!!!
One last thing, I CAN duplicate the same function under Windows 2k by
checking "Use Digital Audio For this Device" in the CDROM properties,
which ironically has nothing to do with the little $2.00 cable but
instead causes the system to do DAE over the IDE BUS, like the Linux
system is doing.
Difference is I can turn it off under Win2k.
So how do I do it under Linux?
What do check in XMMS for example to turn it off?
Or in CDPlay?
Or in KSCD?
Specifically please.
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
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