Linux-Advocacy Digest #954, Volume #32 Tue, 20 Mar 01 23:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: uh oh, redhat is gonna do it ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: What is user friendly? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure (Chad Everett)
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone? (Scott Gardner)
Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software ("JD")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,soc.singles,alt.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.redhat,linux.redhat
Subject: Re: uh oh, redhat is gonna do it
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:53:17 -0500
Albert wrote:
>
> Steve Chaney wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:35:09 -0500, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >Steve Chaney wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:57:05 GMT, T. Max Devlin
> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Said Steve Chaney in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:14:31
> > >> >>I didn't know whether or not RedHat would try and boff the linux
> > >> >>community up the back door, but it looks like they will try after all.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>Is RedHat making like a dog taking off at high speed and forgetting it
> > >> >>is chained by the neck, or will it stop here? My bet is they are
> > >> >>taking the first leaps in a quest to turn their version of Linux into
> > >> >>a paid subscription product.
> > >> >
> > >> >An old and rather appropriate idea.
> > >> >
> > >> >>What am I talking about?
> > >> >>http://www.redhat.com/products/network/service_changes.html
> > >> >>(Credits: first seen on slashdot.org:
> > >> >>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/19/156208&mode=thread)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>A few excerpts from the FAQ page:
> > >> >>"On February 26, 2001 Red Hat will be releasing Software Manager, our
> > >> >>new software update management tool. Software Manager will replace the
> > >> >>introductory Red Hat Network trial program, which will be ending that
> > >> >>day."
> > >> >>
> > >> >>"Software Manager is a subscription offering priced at $19.95 per
> > >> >>month for each system."
> > >> > [...]
> > >> >>Can we say manual updates? Well, at least for now, perhaps. But very
> > >> >>soon they are likely to try and find a way to do away with this as
> > >> >>well.
> > >> >
> > >> >You apparently lack the technical ability to understand why this is a
> > >> >stupid statement. Not only is it unlikely, its an incomprehensible
> > >> >idea.
> > >>
> > >> I call your bluff - why do you think it's a stupid idea?
> > >> RedHat can't go far with this because of the GPL their product is
> > >> licensed under.
> > >
> > >RedHat is merely charging for centralized, reliable CHANGE MANAGEMENT
> > >of software upgrades.
> >
> > I hedged my bets on tis in my post. RedHat is free and clear to charge
> > for support. My question was, will they try and charge for access to
> > the software, period.
> >
> > >This relieves customers of much of the cost of maintaining test
> > >machines and software migration testers....no time spent testing
> > >software versions that aren't yet ready for prime-time....thus
> > >lowering their in-house costs for such testing.
> > >
> > >For home users, who often can't afford to have a "test machine",
> > >this is a very cheap thing. Also, if I were a RedHat home user,
> > >I would just purchase the server for one month every 6 months.
> >
> > With over 300 gigs of HD space I can afford to create a second linux
> > boot filesystem and launch it via LOADLIN.EXE. Boom! Test machine, 10
> > seconds flat.
> >
> > In fact I did that when I ugpraded to Glibc 2.1.
> >
> > Of course, most people can't do that, and this method is senseless for
> > a machine that requires close to 100% uptime.
> >
> > In any case, charging for SUPPORT is not a bad thing. I was asking how
> > likely it is that they're trying to one day charge for the software
> > (OS) itself.
> >
> > -- Steve
> >
> > ===============================
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove the "-" to email me)
> > This site is just TOO COOL for a counter! http://www.self-acceptance.org
> > "As long as an enemy is judged solely by his
> > appearance, his victory is assured." - Outer Limits
> > STOP SMOKING NOW!!! ASK ME HOW!!! http://www.geocities.com/brenduh52/
> > The alt.bonehead.jim-dutton FAQ @ http://www.best.com/~paladin/jjd-faq.shtml
> > The Ramalamer fun page! http://www.best.com/~paladin/ramalane.shtml
>
> Aren't they already charging for the OS through packaged CDs?
>
They're really charging you for the service of putting it on a CD,
and providing an installation and Novice User's manual.
If you don't care for either of these, you can get the same exact
product for FREE by just downloading it from RedHat.
> In any case, RedHat has every right to charge you for using a special service
> that makes it somewhat easier to update and maintain systems. The fact is
> though that many IT pros would like to have a copy of the update RPM in their
> hands (or at least hard drives) as opposed to running RHN on every single
> computer all at once, so I doubt they're going to eradicate manual updates. As
> if that costs them a whole lot of money.
>
RedHat has much added-value in their installation code, etc.
> --
> Albert
>
> "It is only the wisest and stupidest that cannot change."
> --Confucius
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: What is user friendly?
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:53:46 -0500
Craig Oshima wrote:
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Craig Oshima wrote:
> > >
> > > So, because you're smart (extremely rude, but smart), and can write a
> > > multi-user, multi-tasking OS all by yourself, your opinion is that the
> rest
> > > of the world should also major in engineering? Unless they're "fucking
> > > clueless"? "User friendly" does not mean "usable if you can write your
> OS."
> > >
> >
> > Did Shades write the LIE by writing a multi-tasking operating system is a
> > difficult for a software company?
> >
> > a) no
> > B) YES.
>
> My bad. It's hard to keep every thread of this topic separate (that's your
> cue to jump in and point out what an idiot I am). But my point stands
> nonetheless.
>
Craig, your biggest point is on the top of your head.
> --
> Craig Oshima
> coshima@nngroup
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:54:37 -0500
"Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
>
> spicerun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> : In article <997r3b$p1q$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Shades" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> : wrote:
>
> : > I agree there are NT wackos out there too but at least from working with
> : > people from both camps, I have found that the NT wackos "generally" are
> : > a lot less wacko, or at least a lot less vocal about it.
>
> : My experience is completely different from yours. I have been in 2
> : companies with 2 different NT machines....The machines both lock up
> : whenever the network is interrupted. In both places there have been a lot
> : of 'NT' experts telling me that NT doesn't lock up, although there it is
> : locking up in front of their own eyes. But they're adamant that it is a
> : machine problem...not an NT problem.
>
> Whenever machines lock up, whether they're running
> WindowsNT, Linux, BSD/OS, Solaris, or what have you,
> the first thing that should be checked is hardware,
> because 90% of the time, that is the very thing
> that causes BSODs and/or panics.
With Linux, BSD, Solaris...yes.
With WindowsNT, it's usually sloppy code in the kernal
> --
> .-----. "I'm going to get a new job. I'm going to mow lawns. And when
> |[ ] | somebody asks me what I do for a living, I will tell them,
> | = :| 'I mow lawns.' And whatever question might follow, the answer
> | BSD | will most likely be `Yes,' `No,' or `I mow lawns.' And nobody
> |_..._| will ever call me at 3:30am with a lawnmowing emergency."
> -- hymie in ASR
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:54:42 GMT
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Jan Johanson wrote:
>> >
>> > "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > > Jan Johanson wrote:
>> > Not true - I don't know anyone who's had any problems with W2K beyond what
>> > any ordinary user might with any OS. Damn stable is what EVERYONE reports.
>>
>> lol, it get funnier every time. Damn!! You don't expect anyone to believe your
>> crap, do you?
>
>I haven't heard any reports otherwise, except for be-FUDed Linux dorks
>like you who like to spread lies and mistruths.
>
>What reports have you been seeing that show Win2K is unstable or has
>lots of BSOD's?
>
How about companies making money off of Win2K's reliable reputation
for crashing:
http://www.superwin.com/rescue2k.htm
If Win2K didn't reliably crash...why the heck would there be a market
for the above product?
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:56:17 -0500
"Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
>
> spicerun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> : In article <997r3b$p1q$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Shades" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> : wrote:
>
> : > I agree there are NT wackos out there too but at least from working with
> : > people from both camps, I have found that the NT wackos "generally" are
> : > a lot less wacko, or at least a lot less vocal about it.
>
> : My experience is completely different from yours. I have been in 2
> : companies with 2 different NT machines....The machines both lock up
> : whenever the network is interrupted. In both places there have been a lot
> : of 'NT' experts telling me that NT doesn't lock up, although there it is
> : locking up in front of their own eyes. But they're adamant that it is a
> : machine problem...not an NT problem.
>
> Whenever machines lock up, whether they're running
> WindowsNT, Linux, BSD/OS, Solaris, or what have you,
> the first thing that should be checked is hardware,
> because 90% of the time, that is the very thing
> that causes BSODs and/or panics.
That must explain why when Linux is installed, and running MORE services,
on a machine which crashed alot when it was running NT....the crashing
problem usually goes away without any hardware replacement.
> --
> .-----. "I'm going to get a new job. I'm going to mow lawns. And when
> |[ ] | somebody asks me what I do for a living, I will tell them,
> | = :| 'I mow lawns.' And whatever question might follow, the answer
> | BSD | will most likely be `Yes,' `No,' or `I mow lawns.' And nobody
> |_..._| will ever call me at 3:30am with a lawnmowing emergency."
> -- hymie in ASR
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott Gardner)
Subject: Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone?
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:04:30 GMT
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:24:01 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad
Everett) wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:17:46 GMT, Scott Gardner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On 19 Mar 2001 09:42:58 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick
>>Condon) wrote:
>>
>>>Eugenio Mastroviti wrote:
>>>>Nick Condon wrote:
>>>>> Bringing up a Linux installation is *easier* than doing it in Windows.
>>>>
>>>>This is simply not true. Again, it is from my and your point of view (a
>>>>*really working* Win installation is not simply harder, it's
>>>>impossible...). It is not from Joe User's point of view.
>>>
>>>The only people who install operating systems are people who build their
>>>own PCs and corporate techies. Everyone else gets a PC with an OS already
>>>on it, so Joe User is irrelevant to this discussion.
>>
>><<SNIP>>
>>
>>>Nick
>>
>>True, but if Linux is going to gain a large foothold in the desktop
>>market, it's going to be these "Joe User"s that make the difference.
>>By this, I mean the people that already have Windows and for whatever
>>reason, want to switch to Linux. Either the installation and (more
>>importantly) configuration is going to have to be streamlined and
>>simplified, or they'll just have to wait until there is a wide variety
>>of off-the-shelf desktops from places like Dell and Gateway before
>>Linux will get the really large numbers in the consumer desktop field.
>> I installed RH 7.0, and while the installation itself went very
>>smoothly, a significant portion of my hardware isn't supported by RH
>>7.0. So while the installation was virtually idiot-proof, I'm left
>
>
>Tell us the hardware that you have that's not supported by RH 7
>
>
Well, I've posted it on the list before, but here goes a shortened
version of that post.
Promise Fastrak 100 IDE RAID card. It is supported by RH 7.0 by
means of a pre-compiled binary driver from promise, but didn't work
when I upgraded to kernel 2.4.2. Promise says that they're working on
a way to provide Linux support without disclosing any proprietary
source code, but I'll just have to wait until they release support for
the 2.4 kernel.
Diamond Monster Sound MX 400 and MX 300 sound cards. The MX 400 uses
the Canyon ESS 3D chipset. I can't remember what chipset the MX 300
uses, but I have the card lying around here. I ended up just buying
an older SoundBlaster AWE 64 card for compatibility's sake..
Diamond Supramax 56k modem. Not Linux's fault--I didn't realize at
the time I bought it that it was a Winmodem, so 'nuff said. Replaced
it with a US Robotics 56k External model.
Epson Photo Stylus 875DC USB inkjet printer. May work under kernel
2.4, but until I can get the RAID card working in 2.4 I can't do any
serious work in 2.4, so I haven't investigated further. Seems to me
that USB support in kernel 2.2 is pretty much limited to keyboards and
mice. (Both my USB keyboard and USB mouse worked great from the start
under 2.2, by the way. This was a pleasant surprise.)
Toshiba PDR-M4 digital camera USB interface. Same situation as the
Epson Printer.
Pacific Image Electronics flatbed scanner. Has a proprietary
half-card SCSI interface, and I haven't been able to get Linux to
recognize it yet. The SANE page lists the scanner as being
unsupported/untested.
Pinnacle Studio DV10 Plus A/V image capture board/output board. Not
even CLOSE to getting this one recognized under Linux, but I don't
have any Linux software for doing video capturing anyway.
Diamond Viper II AGP graphics card. This one uses the Savage 2000 3D
chipset. Not sure if I could have gotten this one working, but I went
ahead and replaced it with an older PCI Diamond Viper V330 that I had
lying around (Riva 128 Chipset), and the V330 was recognized right off
the bat. I don't think any of the whiz-bang 3D features are
supported, but at least X recognized the chipset with no problems.
I'm making do in the meantime by just using older equipment that I
have lying around. My HP Deskjet 660C is doing fine for colour
printing, as long as I don't want true photo-quality. I never used
the 4-speaker output or S/PIF outputs on either of the two Diamond
sound cards, so the AWE 64 really isn't all that much of a step
backwards. The USB printer and camera might be supported under kernel
2.4 just fine for all I know, but until I can get the RAID card
working under 2.4, I'm pretty much stuck.
Scott
------------------------------
From: "JD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:11:33 -0500
"Rob S. Wolfram" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> JD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >"Scot Mc Pherson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:q2us6.248195$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> the FREE is Free Software Foundation was never meant to mean "no
> >> money". It means it give you the freedom to choose how you work, and
> >> not have the choices made for you.
> >>
> >GPL doesn't do that for you.
>
> Then I wonder who or what does. I am guaranteed that I can always patch
> a bug in gcc.
>
> Can you patch a bug in the BSDLed code from Microsoft's ftp.exe?
>
(Dec distributed source code, which didn't make their OSes free.)
Who cares? It might be a nice feature to be able to change source code, but
ftp.exe isn't BSDLed anyway. You can always port the original (if you really
want to, since it is free.) It might be silly for a vendor to try to hold source
close to them, but there are numerous reasons for not doing that. The original
code is free anyway.
What you speak of is a FEATURE, and haven't demonstrated disagreement with the fact
that
the original BSDLed work was and still IS probably free. Note that if the FTP source
code
was originally under the GPL, it is likely that a company who would have to invest
alot to
make changes to the code WOULD NOT have started with encumbered source.
Source code is a 'feature' and not a God given right... Having source code is also not
the same thing as the code being free, otherwise many of the original DEC OSes would
also be considered to be free, and obviously they were not.
Note that the add-on developers with minor enhancements have to
deal with tracking the enhancements from the free software world, and that effort
is often difficult. Note that one of the reasons for using the 'free' version
directly and
returning source code, is the cost of tracking the free effort. That indeed can be a
major
effort, and is one reason why the explicit and onerous restrictions of the non-free
GPL are obviated
much of the time by the fact that it is seldom profitable to create a private fork of
free
code. Some people do play that game, and they incur the development cost.
Some people do alot of add-on
work, and free code gives the opportunity to profit off of a singificant effort. Of
course,
programming for profit is less desirable when based upon non-free code, like GPLed
works, because of the costs (encumberances) involved. In fact, since GPLed works are
often
knock-offs of highly developed free and commercial code, the hard part of 'design' is
already
done before the first line of GPLed code has been created.
So, you have seen a freedom when using a piece of free software, where some
can try to take obvious code private, and waste time trying to track the free versions.
On the other hand, those who are very inventive, can avoid the need to give away
signifcant
efforts, until the profit has been extracted (e.g. softupdates in FreeBSD.) With free
code, there is
the opportunity for free code to be used as 'seed software' in temporarily commercial
works, and that model has been very useful. There is a long internal history on the
FreeBSD (and probably NetBSD projects) where 'commercial' work is given back after
the benefit of the software development investment has been rightfully extracted.
However, IN NO WAY is the freeness of a software distribution placed at risk when
someone
decides to create 'their own local version.' Perhaps one reason for the GCC compiler
being
so much a playground, but only an okay compiler compare to commercial works (e.g. the
intel c compiler) is that commercial works allow for funding of a COMPLEX and
INNOVATIVE
project, with developers who have the resources to produce a rather good compiler like
the
Intel C Compiler. The GPL model for complex developments would be likely more
effective
IF the projects were consistantly produced nearly the same quality of commercial work.
(Note that GPLed knock-off code -- which is essentially a design-copy, but a recoded
version
of an original commecial work, often performs about the same as the equivalent
commercial
or free code.)
> >> This is done by providing the Source code of the software.
> >>
> >Source code distribution isn't required by the GPL... Go ask Cygnus
> >for all of their GPLed source code: they don't have to give it to you.
>
> Should I copy section 3a of the GPL for you or are you willing to read
> it yourself and come back then?
>
Your statement above makes the implication of something that isn't true.
I suggest that you reread the entire GPL, except try to understand it this
time again. Perhaps I expected too much of you that you might understand
the fact that the GPL doesn't force the distribution of any code, unless a previous
transaction of somesort occurs, and that restriction/requirement doesn't make code
'free'. For example, if Cygnus had a GPLed Windows NT, they dont' have to give it to
you!!! Believe it or not!!! Incredible that you don't understand this.
My statement was and still is predicated upon the fact that an average person
on the street is doing the asking of below:
Again, Source code distribution isn't required by the GPL... Go ask Cygnus
for all of their GPLed source code: they don't have to give it to you...
Again, Binary code distribution isn't required by the GPL... Go ask Cygnus
for all of their GPLed binary code: they don't have to give it to you...
Ask the customers of Cygnus, who DEPEND on the day to day and expernsive
support contracts, to give you the code that Cygnus gave to them... Some might
give it to you, but they don't have to give it to you.
Nowhere in the GPL are these statements contradicted. The 'little guy' who has
been mislead into believing that the GPL forces the distribution of code will be very
disappointed when they find out that GPL vendors don't have to given them anything!!!
Remember: Dec distributed source code, but their OSes werent' free!!!
John
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