Linux-Advocacy Digest #107, Volume #33 Mon, 26 Mar 01 09:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Has Linux anything to offer ? (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux dying ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux dying ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux dying ("Chad Myers")
Re: FW: Ethics of Circumventing OS (Roberto Alsina)
Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!> ("Chad Myers")
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. ("Gary Hallock")
Re: Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism) (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism) (Roberto Alsina)
Re: CLI vs GUI (chrisv)
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. (Terry Porter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Has Linux anything to offer ?
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:05:17 GMT
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 04:46:05 GMT, Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>WJP wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:41:35 -0800, "Peter"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >Has Linux seriously anything to offer the average desktop user?
>> >
>> The challenge to learn more about what is going on "inside" the computer
>> along with the versatility of program operating selection(s), such as
>> window managers, word processors, utilities, etc.
>>
>> >Is it really a full operating system for the desktop?
>> >
>> Yes, and much, much more - as I learn - each time I boot Linux.
>>
>> >Does it boot up and shut down quicker than other operating systems?
>> >
>> Yes, about the same amount of time, however, the user is provided
>> information at bootup which is completely missing when using Microsoft
>> software.
>
>But can be found in Windows using the right tools.
But with Linux no 'right tools' need be 'found', theyre already there,
as a *standard* part of the system.
>
>> >Is software for accessing the Web, Email and Newsgroups the best there is
>> >available?
>> >
>> Personally, I haven't gotten that far in the use of Linux - I am still
>> "Linux challenged", however, my experience so far is that Forte' Agent
>> is one of the most versatile news reader/email programs extant.
>
>Agent is available for Windows.
You pay for 'Agent', SLRN gives all the facilities that 'Agent' gives you
and for free :)
>
>> >Are there more software programs written for the home user in Linux than any
>> >other system?
>> >
>> I haven't taken time to make a comparative count.
>>
>> (As an aside, I have promised myself and my wife that I will be
>> Microsoft free by the end of 2001.)
>
>Why? Bragging rights? Different tools for different jobs...
Perhaps he's sick of the endless upgrades, virii and lack of stability
that his current OS offers ?
>
>Windows is not necessarily a worse OS, it is a helluva lot less stable
>though.
Define 'worse' ??
Windows is crippled compared to Linux, it lacks ability.
>
>> >Do games and graphical programs run faster and better than on other systems?
>> >
>> Not experienced enough with Linux to answer this question.
>
>The answer would be no... XWindows is kindof a snail, but it's run on
>top of Linux like Windows 3.x did rather than compiled in with the
>kernel like in Windows. The result is bittersweet: XWindows is slow but
>when it crashes (and it does crash) the whole OS is taken down unlike
>Windows where a single process can crash the system.
Theres more to it than that, Xwindows can remotely run apps on another machine,
Windows simply cannot do this without 3rd party apps.
These extra facilities can make Xwindows 'appear' slower, but its a subjective
thing. For me, Xwindows is not slow.
>
>> >Are CD-R and CD-RW easier to configure and use with Linux?
>> >
>> I haven't "been there" yet, either.
I purchased a Ricoh CD-RW unit only a week ago, and couldnt believe how easily
it worked! Burning CD's under Linux can be as simple as a 2 line CLI, or
you can use several GUI frontends if thats your desire.
For example, here's the 2 line CLI commands:-
1/ Make iso9660 image
mkisofs -r -o cd_image private_collection_of_files
2/ Burn the image
cdrecord -v speed=8 dev-/0,0,0 -data cd_image
Heres the other good part, want to test the image by reading it as a pretend
CD ?
This is easily done using Linux's loopback facility :)
mount -t iso9660 -o ro,loop=/dev/loop0 cd_image /mnt/test_cd
>>
>> >Is the support for Display Cards, DVD, Sound Cards, Large Hard Drives and
>> >Printers better?
>> >
>> The support is there, if "one" knows where and how to look for it.
>
>True and it will communicate with "non-Win" hardware beautifully (so
>Winmodems and Winprinters will not work but independent devices will
>work).
>
>> >Is there a really must have program for the home user that is only available
>> >in Linux?
>> >
>> Not that I'm aware of, however, that doesn't mean that eventually I
>> won't find one.
>
>There probably is one out there, but there a ton available for Windows
>that anyone can name offhand.
There are *dozens* out there, they're stable and free. Unlike a lot of Windows
Freeware or Shareware, Linux apps are high quality.
>
>> >Is the fact that Linux is free and used by people who do not want to pay for
>> >anything the only reason it is used?
>> >
>> I don't think so. I have shelled out a certain amount of bucks for five
>> of the seven Linux distro's I've installed.
My current Linux disto (Mandrake7.2) cost $19Australian Dollars. My last one
was RedHat4.2 and that cost me $6.
But the cost is irellevant to me, the reason I use Linux is because its
'Free Software', see www.fsf.org for more details about this.
>
>Seven distro's? Geez...
win3.0, win3.1, win3.11, win95, win98, win2k, winNT
Geez...
>
>> >Finally where would the sales of home computers be today if the only
>> >operating system was Linux?
>> >
>> The answer is a rather moot point. The more appropriate question is:
>> what improvements are likely to increase the number of home computer
>> users - (which is a question that continues to be hashed and rehashed in
>> this very newsgroup.) However, there are those Linux users posting to
>> this group who readily state that Linux is sufficient for their needs,
>> so why be concerned about other users' software choice. IMHO, the
>> steady increase in the Linux user base adds to the innovation, program
>> enhancement, and viability of the software - regardless of the
>> particular distro name. My own focus on Linux is partly due to the
>> increased user base as well as other factors mentioned herein. Your
>> mileage, of course, may vary.
Who knows where it would be ?
And why does it matter?
Terry
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:09:38 GMT
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <%ntv6.29040$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> >"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> In article <3abe4f75$0$48801$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jan Johanson wrote:
> >> >
> >> >"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Brent R wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Seriously... it's a bargain market right now... the chance that
> >> >> >Microsoft will be in business 5 years from now is a lot better than a
> >> >> >Linux company's chance. Even though I have conflicing views on their
> >> >> >products, Microsoft is a sure bet and solid as a rock.
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >- Brent
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Seriously, anybody who thinks Linux will just blow away is a
> >> >> total fool.
> >> >
> >> >blow away? disappear? not likely, not soon at least. but, so what... what
> >> >good is it if you have a great underground user base of loyal linux
users...
> >> >so? all we can hope for as that they'll just go away quietly to their own
> >> >little world... far far away from reality...
> >> >
> >>
> >> The only thing which will blow away far, far from reality is you.
> >>
> >> Microsoft has already developed the common sense to admit they
> >> were defeated when they announced they would support Linux under
> >> the .NET initiative.
> >
> >How quaint and naive. I don't know what's funnier, the fact that
> >you believe that, or the fact that you posted it on the Internet
> >for everyone to see.
> >
> >ROFL...
> >
> >-c
> >
> >
>
> Well,
>
> If I'm quite "naive" as you put it, then why in the fuck is Microsoft
> doing it?
Because they want .NET to be ubiquitous. They want people to set up
as many .NET servers as they can. Who knows, that might be MS' in
to Linux to start dominating Linux and tearing it apart from the inside.
MS isn't giving Linux any credit at all. They just see that somehow,
by some stroke of luck, Linux, the piece of shit OS that it is, as
has somehow managed to obtain 20% or so server share in the market,
so they'll port their .NET CLR over to it to demonstrate that .NET
really is as good as it sounds.
> Chad. Let me say one more time that your the biggest most ignorant
> jackass of a wintroll on the internet.
I was going to say the same thing about you, Charlie, except Lintroll,
not win.
-c
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:11:13 GMT
"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Brent R wrote:
> >Charlie Ebert wrote:
> >> Seriously, anybody who thinks Linux will just blow away is a
> >> total fool.
> >
> >Don't think I said that it would. I'm talking stocks here...
>
> That's fine, just don't ever confuse the stock market with the real world.
> All those huge tech valuations you saw in March last year, they weren't
> real. Just as the lows you see today aren't real.
>
> >> And Microsoft will eventually turn into an applications vendor
> >> just as I predicted. They've already pretty much said so.
> >
> >Huh?
>
> MS wants out of the operating system business, hence we see .NET.
No, MS wants to make the OS irrelevant. They want the decision
in buying an OS not really matter. That way, people will by
Windows just because it runs .NET better, but their main motivation
will be in buying the best .NET Server for their services.
-c
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:13:23 GMT
"Brent R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> > "Jan Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:3abe4f75$0$48801$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Brent R wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >Seriously... it's a bargain market right now... the chance that
> > > > >Microsoft will be in business 5 years from now is a lot better than a
> > > > >Linux company's chance. Even though I have conflicing views on their
> > > > >products, Microsoft is a sure bet and solid as a rock.
> > > > >--
> > > > >- Brent
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, anybody who thinks Linux will just blow away is a
> > > > total fool.
> > >
> > > blow away? disappear? not likely, not soon at least. but, so what... what
> > > good is it if you have a great underground user base of loyal linux
users...
> > > so? all we can hope for as that they'll just go away quietly to their own
> > > little world... far far away from reality...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Even if the commercial market turned away from the product,
> > > > Linux will still be there and be developed. It already has
> > > > a loyal user base and that user base is unshakable.
> > > >
> > > > Anytime you put a FREE product on the market against a commercialized,
> > > > expensive, copyrighted product - the FREE product will win.
> > >
> > > really? EVERY time? can you name some others?
> >
> > Let's see, StarOffice.. oh no, that's right...
>
> StarOffice is more popular than Office?
>
> > How 'bout Linux, for example? Oh no, that's right...
(Hint, that's my point)
I was being sarcastic and supporting Jan. =)
Neither StarOffice, nor Linux, nor BSD, nor WinE are more
popular than their MS counterparts.
So, somehow (not suprisingly) Charlie Ebert's "logic"
is incorrect.
He says, "the FREE product will win", but that
simply isn't true.
-c
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: FW: Ethics of Circumventing OS
Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:32:18 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:09:24 -0800, GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Found another monkey stuck in a coconut? That glitz sure gets them
>don't it. :-)
Sorry, but that one flew right over my head?
--
("\''/").__..-''"`-. . Roberto Alsina
`9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-._.`) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._`. " -.-' Director técnico
_..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.' Conectiva SA
(l)-'' ((i).' ((!.' Buenos Aires - Argentina
KDE Developer (MFCH)
Futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis. (Carlton, De rerum comoedia)
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:17:38 GMT
"Michael Vester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Jan Johanson wrote:
> >
> > "Michael Vester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > losedos can not format a disk and do something else at the same time.
> > > Formatting a floppy under Linux uses less than %2 cpu cycles and
> > > everything else is not affected. Simple comparison and losedos fails. The
> > > only way to achieve any uptime with losedos is disconnect it from the
> > > network and don't run anything on it. Not even a screen saver.
> >
> > Tell you what. I'll bet you that you are wrong. I bet I can format a disk
> > using "less than %2 cpu cycles and everything else is not affected" under
> > Windows.
> >
> > Simple bet.
> >
> > Wanna take it?
> >
> > I say you are wrong and I can prove it. Do you have the balls to back up
> > your lie?
>
> Go for it. Format away. I fail to see why the size of my testicles are
> relevant to whether losedos can format floppy disks and do something else
> at the same time. Does running losedos reliably require larger testicles?
>
> I don't lie, I simply report my observations.
Well, then you're lying. Which version of Windows are you referring to.
I can post screen shots of format.com taking exactly 0% of my CPU cycles.
> Any time I format a floppy
> under losedos, I must wait until it is finished before attempting anything
> else. I thought this was common knowledge.
You are lying, plain and simple.
I am formatting a floppy as I write you this post.
I'm looking at taskmgr and format.com is taking 0% CPU.
-c
------------------------------
From: "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:31:44 +0500
In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Its a good complaint! I've harped at Caldera for some time to get their
> act together. What they have assumed is that the PC has one partition
> for the limited version of PM to make a hole. This version can't split
> one partition in the middle and you wouldn't want to anyway. LILO can't
> go past the 8GB limit, unless they have fixed it. LILO is looking for
> the start of the executive program.
The latest version of LILO can get past the 8GB limit, but I'm no sure
what distributions are shipping with now.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism)
Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:38:57 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 01:38:54 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:44:30 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Said Aaron R. Kulkis in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 24 Mar 2001
>> >> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Said Aaron R. Kulkis in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 24 Mar 2001
>> >> >> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >> >> [...]
>> >> >> >> I have no political beliefs, Aaron, much as you may disagree with my
>> >> >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I think it's funny how left-wingers like to proclaim that you have
>> >> >> >have no political beliefs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think its funny how, in comparison to you, just about anyone, even a
>> >> >> moderate like me, is a "left winger".
>> >> >
>> >> >Advocation of Marxist principles is "moderate"?
>> >>
>> >> I have never *advocated* marxist principles; I have *defended* them.
>> >> The difference is important to anyone but an extremist.
>> >
>> >To defend an idea is to advocate it.
>>
>> That has to be the most insane thing you have said so far, Aaron.
>> And that´s quite insane!
>>
>
>Is not the purpose of both the acknowledged advocate, and the defender
>of the same idea, to maximize, through their own ways, the number
>of people who believe the idea?
Actually the defender wants the number not to decrease, the advocate
wants the number to grow.
>The advocate wants people to switch to his side.
>The defender wants to prevent believers on his side from defecting.
And those are two different things, and you can do one and not the
other at will. A prison guard is not the same as a conqueror.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism)
Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:39:59 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 02:05:27 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:44:30 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Said Aaron R. Kulkis in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 24 Mar 2001
>> >> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Said Aaron R. Kulkis in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 24 Mar 2001
>> >> >> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >> >> [...]
>> >> >> >> I have no political beliefs, Aaron, much as you may disagree with my
>> >> >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I think it's funny how left-wingers like to proclaim that you have
>> >> >> >have no political beliefs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think its funny how, in comparison to you, just about anyone, even a
>> >> >> moderate like me, is a "left winger".
>> >> >
>> >> >Advocation of Marxist principles is "moderate"?
>> >>
>> >> I have never *advocated* marxist principles; I have *defended* them.
>> >> The difference is important to anyone but an extremist.
>> >
>> >To defend an idea is to advocate it.
>>
>> That has to be the most insane thing you have said so far, Aaron.
>> And that´s quite insane!
>
>
>Was Ben Franklin insane when he said "A penny saved is a penny earned"
>
>How about "100 dollars saved is 100 dollars earned"
>
>Is that insane?
Why are you following up twice? Are you suffering some sort of schizoid
episode?
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: chrisv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CLI vs GUI
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:54:44 GMT
Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>chrisv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> >How much memory does that gui chew up? That memory could be put to better
>> >use. My Linux boxes that act as servers do not run a gui. It is nice to be
>> >able to choose the right environment for the task at hand.
>
>> Of course memory is about 40 cents per MB now....
>
>Nice way of not answering the question. Your inability to answer is an
>answer in itself...
Learn how to use a newsreader, dumbass. I wasn't asked a question.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:56:43 GMT
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:43:28 -0700, Brian Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:13:04 +1200, root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>>I have done a quick brisk over the net for you posting on the "Mandrake
>>Support News Group", I found your comments rather rude, and considering
>>you only posted on one news group really shows your enthusiasm to get
>>Linux work'in on your computer. Worst still you fail to give the exact
>>message etc, or computer specifications when posting your problem.
>Actually, I'm not that interested in what you think is rude, because
>given how rudely insulting you're being to me personally you're
>obviously a shameless, self-righteous hypocrite.
>
>Thanks very much,
>
>Brian Rourke
Mr Rourke, you're a new poster here, and you've had some problems installing
Linux, but your skill at insulting long term COLA posters, and knowledgable
Linux users is second to none.
Insulting kiwiunixman is poor form, he's a long term poster with credible
Linux skills, you on the other hand, are new here, so far only your
ability to complain is obvious.
I personaly couldn't care less about your problems, or your perceived lack
of 'care' by some posters here. If we want help, we ask nicely, and if we're
lucky, someone may help us. COLA is not the place for this, its an *advocacy*
group, and we almost never answer technical queries, as there are Linux NG's
for just that purpose.
Wanna let of some steam, thats cool, but you'll get as good as you give on COLA
.
>Wyndham Lewis
Terry
------------------------------
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