Linux-Advocacy Digest #449, Volume #33 Sun, 8 Apr 01 12:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Read this clueless Linux advocates... (Goldhammer)
Re: t. max devlin: kook ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: t. max devlin: kook ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Undeniable proof that Aaron R. Kulkis is a hypocrite, and a luser... (was Re:
Chinese airforce adopted Win2k infrastructure) ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux is just another Unix (yawn) (Chad Everett)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Salvador Peralta)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.singles
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:44:00 -0400
GreyCloud wrote:
>
> WGAF wrote:
> >
> > "Salvador Peralta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:9akl37$oel$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > WGAF quoth:
> > >
> > > > Conversely, for 35 years Unix couldn't manage to come up with a
> > > > usable version for the end users. Catering for small area is fine,
> > > > but then it should not be compared to technology aimed at the mass
> > > > user market. The requirements and the subsequent pricing are
> > > > different among other things.
> > >
> > > A very good point. By the release of KDE 2.1, Linux is finally at a
> > > point where it competes on basically equal terms with Windows on
> > > the "end user" desktop -- the caveat here is presentation software
> > > which is not yet up to par with power point.
> >
> > The "basically equal terms" part is arguable at best. KDE still requires
> > more computer knowledge from the average end users, more than most of them
> > willing to learn when alternate OSes with less knowledge requirements are
> > easy to come by. Couple this with lack of quality software, support, and the
> > end user has no reason to change his/her desktop system at the moment.
> >
>
> Hi Otto. I think my wife, (accountant), will disagree with you. I
> recently introduced her to the CDE desktop environment (Motif)(Sun
> Solaris 8) and she found it very easy to use. Once set up, as a
> workstation, it requires very little admin. Compare that with the
> problems of the normal end user that purchases an off the shelf pc with
> Win98 or WinME and the problems start escalating a couple months later.
> Thats when the trouble starts... you have to start fixing things, and at
> worst a total O/S re-install. Win9x series or ME just start corrupting
> for some reason. And after a few bangs across the head to fix windows
> I'm seriously looking for an alternative. Looks like we'll be buying a
> couple of Sun systems. She really liked the ease of use.
>
> > >
> > > But for the IT workstation, an integrated desktop / local server
> > > environment, Linux far surpasses windows in terms of tco and roi. it
> > > requires less maintenance, the upgrade path is essentially no cost,
> > > and the hardware lifecycle is *much* longer for Linux simply because
> > > its server and database software is less greedy in
> > > terms of required resources.
> >
> > That maybe true, however, it isn't as clear cut as you seem to suggest.
> > There are other factors which need to be considered when one picks an OS.
> > One of them is the available resources to handle such a system and the other
> > is the end user's knowledge base. One'd need a much wider availability of
> > Linux admins and users before one can even think of using Linux platform.
> > There has been some progress in that area, nonetheless it still can't
> > compete with the other OSes admin and user support base as of yet.
> >
> > >
> > > > You says "tremendous inroads", others say hardly visible dent in the
> > > > OS market.
> > >
> > > I think you mean desktop market. Through last year, with no real
> > > major vendor support, Linux remained the #2 server OS in terms of
> > > licenses shipped and #1 in terms of growth. This, despite the fact
> > > that GNU licensing promotes building multiple copies off of a single
> > > disk and the distribution chain promotes installation via ftp or
> > > burning your own iso's.
> >
> > And NT remained the #1 server OS in the market, gaining about 6%. Most of
> > the Linux' gains came at the expense of Unix and Novell platform and not NT.
> >
> > > Now we've got Linux supported across IBM's entire mainframe and
> > > midrange architecture and their Global Services group actively
> > > promoting the OS. It is poised, if anything, to grow at an even more
> > > rapid rate than before.
> >
> > The numbers for this years growth contradict your statement. Linux seems to
> > slowed down so far this year.
> >
> > >
> > > > And the number of copies bought, tried once and thrown away aren't
> > > > in the statistics either. Not to mention the fact that most of the
> > > > statistical data for OSes gathered for US only with little or no
> > > > regards to other countries.
> > >
> > > Which is one of the reasons that many people feel that 1% of the end
> > > user market is too small. Another reason relates to the licensing
> > > that I just discussed. It is very hard to pin down how much linux is
> > > used because single copies are so often re-used, or are never even
> > > purchased from a vendor which sells. I now have 9 machines running
> > > on 2 cheapbytes copies of linux. For the record, that's 9 systems (
> > > soon to be 11 ) and not one single license. I would suggest that my
> > > experience is the norm rather than the exception for an IT
> > > professional who uses and installs linux.
> >
> > I disagree with your norm for IT professionals. Then again, it depends which
> > circle one moves. I'm working with NT and that seems more like a norm now
> > days.
> >
> > Otto
>
> --
> V
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Goldhammer)
Subject: Re: Read this clueless Linux advocates...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:56:45 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:37:23 GMT, WGAF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Luckily for Linux, there are people who
>can see behind the hype.....
>
>http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/12/index3a.html
This article presents the usual incorrect
picture of the OSS movement as somesort of
'corporation' or 'business' whose goal is
to compete in the marketplace:
"To stay competitive, open-source companies and
communities must do a better job of courting a
group for whom they seem to have little
understanding or respect. Ironically, it's a
group they should know very well."
Natually, with this incorrect mental picture
of the OSS movement, it is easy to suggest
that OSS will fail because it has no organized
marketing department, no armies of PHBs, no
telemarketers, no advertising deparment, no
human resources management layer, or other
bogosities irrelevant to loose groups of
volunteers who do what they do because they
find it interesting.
--
Don't think you are. Know you are.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: t. max devlin: kook
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:35:46 +0200
"The Ghost In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Anonymous
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:30:34 -0600
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Anything with a command line is easier to learn, of course, because it
> >> is simpler
> >
> >i just wanted to see that again
> > jackie 'anakin' tokeman
>
> There are advantages to the command line, but ease of learning
> is not among them (though it depends in part on the complexity
> thereof, the design of the GUI, and to a large part on the
> documentation available using 'man' or 'info').
>
> A well-designed GUI can be very easy, especially if it has common
> elements; this is what makes Windows so powerful. (Mac OS, too,
> as it turns out, although the details are different, and, to
> a slightly lesser extent, widget sets on X; the main problem there
> is cut and paste, and resize feedback.)
>
> Everyone understands:
>
> - moving the mouse pointer
> - clicking, dragging, and dropping
> - double-clicking, dragging, and dropping icons
> - folder icons as directories, document icons as files
> - top-mounted window pulldown menus
> - keyboard shortcuts
> - buttons with balloon help
> - text entry controls, both multiline and single-line
> - Control/C, Control/X, and Control/V
I remember using RH 6, with copy, cut, paste, were alt instead of ctrl, it
drove me *mad*.
> - scrollbars
> - scrolling lists (both horizontal and vertical)
> - drop down comboboxes (which are actually a combination of button,
> menu, and list)
>
> Windows does have advantages. However, MS may be frittering
> away some of them; the latest Windows appear to have movable
> menubars. What use is that? Detach a menubar from the window,
> and it becomes a floating menubar -- um, now what app did
> that floating menubar correspond to?! (Netscape and GTK have
> the same capability, so it's not limited to Windows.)
It seems to be a part of customizable interface. Most notable in Explorer,
Office & VS. I think that it's a good thing.
You can choose where, how, and what icons would be placed.
> And then there's the famous gorgeously slow disappearing and
> scrolling out menus. Waste of CPU cycles, IMO. What's
> next, rapidly rotating dialog boxes a la old filmreels and cartoons? :-)
OSX, anyone?
> At least balloon help serves a purpose, especially since some of
> those icons aren't exactly intuitive. Even pulldown menus
> are an aid to documentation; they show the capabilities of the
> program -- which makes the "hide less recently used" option
> on pulldown menus in Windows a bit puzzling. Then again,
> one can make a case either way.
Yes, think about something like Word, so many capabilities, only few of them
any one person would use, so it is useful. It's good that it's based on
user's choice, although I think that (it might be there, I'm not sure) there
should be a way for the user to spesify what options should be permenantly
shown/hidden/hidden when inactive. Kind of like XP's notification area.
I don't like what they did to the control panel, though, it isn't that big,
and it should be user decided.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: t. max devlin: kook
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:50:54 +0200
"Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ghost
>
> Thanks for a thoughtful summary of the advantages of GUIs.
> However, let's not make the "one size fits all" mistake.
> Examples:
>
> - I've seen lot's of evidence that some users of GUI
> wordprocessors are much more interested in form than
> they are in content. There's a lot of wonderful writing
> out there which was done with steel pens or manual
> typewriters.
IIRC, there was a an experiment with the first macs words proccessors, with
users doing all kind of strange things to fonts and colors and all sort of
stuff.
After a while they grew out of it.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:02:31 -0400
WGAF wrote:
>
> "Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Have you ever heard the term, "the best technology doesn't always win on
> the
> > day". UNIX has been around for 35 years, and has never been intended to be
> run on
> > end lusers systems such as yours, that is why they have stuck with high
> end
> > servers and workstations, the area where the end user has some grey matter
> in
> > their head.
>
> Conversely, for 35 years Unix couldn't manage to come up with a usable
> version for the end users. Catering for small area is fine, but then it
> should not be compared to technology aimed at the mass user market. The
> requirements and the subsequent pricing are different among other things.
>
you're joking. The reason why Unix has been my favorite OS for about
15 years is precisely because it IS the most usable OS out there.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Undeniable proof that Aaron R. Kulkis is a hypocrite, and a luser...
(was Re: Chinese airforce adopted Win2k infrastructure)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:56:46 +0200
"The Ghost In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> (It'll be interesting to see what can be done against
> infrared goggles, admittedly. Most likely they'll
> have to develop a good light insulating material made
> into a coat, or a thick insulating goo spread on the
> face, hands, feet, etc. But I digress. :-) )
*Bad* idea. You will be cooked to death in a short while. No heat
dissapation. Especially when being physically active.
s
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Subject: Re: Linux is just another Unix (yawn)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 8 Apr 2001 09:59:05 -0500
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:55:35 GMT, Peter R. Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Linux is the kernel, the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS. Given the
>> look n' feel, it's easy to see how people use Linux and UNIX sa synonyms
>> given the amount of GNUware found on UNIXes.
>>
>
>Actually, the Linux kernel isn't the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS.
>The Hurd kernel is the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS. The Linux
>kernel just happens to be filling that void right now.
>
>Please read this page:
>
>http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
>
Dream...dream, dream, dream.
------------------------------
From: Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:22:47 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WGAF quoth:
>> I've never that happen in v2.1. I have application crashes, and
>> application lockups ( so far, only knode in v2.1 ), but that is a
>> simple PS -A, kill PID. Or XKill.
>
> Hmm... Tha application locks up but you kill X. Did you say that the
> X never locks up?
No. XKill is a graphical front end where you simply put the
skull and bones on the frozen app and click to kill it. Clearly you
don't even know what the tools are -- and that one has been around
for years.
You'd have similar functionality on windows, but application crashes
usually result in system crashes so probably no one ever thought of
it.
>> I said better integration between the browser and applications.
>> Can you specify that you want to use an image editor to open images
>> in
>> IE? Can you select what application you'd like to use to view
>> source? Can you specify what mail client you'd like to use? Which
>> news client? How much configuration can you do on your key
>> bindings?
>> Can you open zipped and gzipped files without uncompressing them?
>> Can you set HTTP user agent?
>
> Sure you can, there's MS Outlook and Outlook Express mail clients.
So what you are saying is that IE is not as fully integrated with the
applications on your desktop as Konqueror. You cannot set key
bindings. You cannot select *ANY* mail client as the default. You
cannot select an image editor ( like Gimp ) to open images from the
browser. You cannot specify your newsreader, etc. you cannot even
view compressed files.
Thanks for clarifying that issue.
>> Simply untrue. The only application on my desktop that I do not
>> have full cut-and-paste capabilities with other applications is
>> Mozilla. And that's because the project made a poor choice of
>> widget sets to work with.
>
> Therefore the copy/paste doesn't work doesn't work within apps on
> the Linux platform.
Within 1 application. Works fine on the rest of the ones I have on
my desktop. What you are suggesting that you cannot copy and paste
at all, which is untrue and misleading. I can even paste from a
graphical app into a terminal window. Try that on windows.
>> Some people might justify spending a few hundred on that
>> piece of functionality. I cannot.
>
> Really, how about Visio?
I use pic. With it I can do what visio does and a great deal more.
> Tomcat can't hold a candle to Jrun 3.0. Etc, etc....
lol.
> As for Linux not
> being a commercial desktop option until now, that in itself says a
> lot about all of the arguments from last year.
I wasn't making that case last year beyond saying that Linux was more
stable and better for power users. Linux didn't surpass windows for
"average joe user" until kde 2.1.
>> I hope you have licenses for all of those copies. If not, you are
>> admitting to a criminal act in a public forum.
>
> The licenses came with the PC from the OEM, which isn't really a
> copy of W2K anyway just a restore CD. Nice of you to assume that I
> don't have the necessary licenses, typical Linux mentality since
> that's what you would've done.
I wouldn't have to worry about it. I can legally install as many
systems as I want off of a single copy of linux.
In any case, I didn't assume anything. I simply said I hope that all
of your copies are licensed. 6 OEM versions of PC's in a year? Very
few home users have the resources to purchase 6 new pc's in a year.
Are you sure you want to keep talking about this in a public forum?
>> Not at all. I've made the case for Linux being superior with the
>> applications that are bundled with it. If you'd like to make a
>> case for windows plus a bunch of commercial add-on's, don't forget
>> to throw in the costs associated with each purchase required to
>> bring it's suite of applications up to or above what I have for
>> free on linux.
>
> And don't forget to mention that, just like with anything else you
> get what you pay for.
Post the applications and their costs and we'll see whether that
holds water. I suspect that in most cases, it does not.
>> Which makes me wonder why microsoft simply isn't improving as
>> quickly.
>
> That's funny...
Yes, it is.
> You forgot an adjective, let me correct it for you. "more useless
> applications on my linux
> system than you do on any of your windows systems."
Useless, perhaps, to someone who has been trained to solve problems
by vendorlocking their clients into purchasing more software. To
someone who needs tools to rapidly develop custom applications at a
fraction of the cost, and greater flexibility, *everything* that came
with the system is invaluable.
> I guess I should've spelled out what I said to the Solaris admin.
> Nonetheless, you missed the point that there are incompetent admins
> with any OS.
... and with NT more than most.
>> Start with the how-to's. My system came bundled with most of them.
>
> And read through on the history of Linux and how great Linux Torwald
> is? No thanks.. Besides, what the hell the pronunciation of his name
> is doing in the how-to's?
If you don't want to learn the system, that's fine. At least you
admit that you don't fully understand how to use the system because
you don't want to learn it.
> And my Mandrake 7.0, Caldera 2.4 came with generally useless man
> pages.
they might not scale down to the level of nt admin but I have yet to
find a "useless" man page.
>> So you understand why there are many times more linux systems
>> deployed than there are systems licensed. Why not just concede the
>> point and have done?
>
> Because I don't agree with you on that point, pretending that there
> are more Linux installation than the actual figure is rubbish.
It isn't the actual figure of systems deployed. It is the number of
licenses shipped. IDC is very clear on that point and even suggests
that their numbers are lower than the number of systems in
production. Do you expect to do anything other than lose credibility
when you deny that gnu licensing actively promotes a one to many
relationship between licenses shipped and systems deployed?
> Yes, Linux can do all of that albeit not as well as a commercial
> grade OS.
Right. NT scales beyond where a cray does. Tux doesn't annhilate
IIS in terms of transaction processing. Keep telling yourself these
things. You'll still be wrong, but perhaps you need to cling to such
illusions to justify throwing money away on an inferior os.
>> Yep. Windows has nowhere to go but down.
>
> Statistics seems to disagree with you, get used of it.
Feel free to cite something to refute the statement that Linux is the
fastest growing OS in the desktop and server market. I'm sure you
know something that IDC does not.
> And NT also has a larger server market share what you seem to
> forget.
... only in terms of licenses shipped. But we've already gone around
that issue. The fact that you are unwilling to admit that GNU
licensing promotes a one to many relationship between systems
deployed and licenses shipped casts a pall on your credibility in
this portion of our discussion.
>> I agree. But with linux, they aren't locked into a gui, and that's
>> also how it should be.
>
> Geeks will be geeks...
Yes, and fools will be fools. Why waste resources on a graphical
front end if it isn't necessary? "Ummm... because my vendor of
choice didn't properly assess the direction that client/server
computing would take 11 years ago and locked me into a gui-only
solution..."
Nah, that'd be too honest.
--
Salvador Peralta -o)
Programmer/Analyst, Webmaster / \
[EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------------------------
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