Linux-Advocacy Digest #822, Volume #34 Mon, 28 May 01 08:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux beats Win2K (again) ("Mike")
Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!! ("rgs50")
Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust! ("Mart van
de Wege")
Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!! ("Mart van de Wege")
Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!! ("Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)")
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)")
Re: Opera ("Mart van de Wege")
Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!! ("Mart van de Wege")
Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!! ("Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)")
Re: Linux beats Win2K (again) (Ketil Z Malde)
Re: RIP the Linux desktop (pip)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux beats Win2K (again)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:57:24 +0800
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Pete
Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Read it very carefully - I said Windows is more popular therefore it
> gets the device drivers.
I'm not arguing, at least not intentionally. I have a problem with the
circular logic - the popular OS gets the drivers, hence making it more
popular so it gets more drivers - but I guess that's not the point. It
does annoy me tho :-)
>> Mandrake != Linux. You do somewhat have a point here in my experience,
>> however. RedHat 6.2 to 7.0 broke in various stupid ways. 7.0 to 7.1
>> seems to have been painless. Windows upgrades are often quite painless,
>> but then again, it's also upgrading much less than a typical linux
>> system - large parts of which are nothing to do with the vendor.
> I thought someone else would agree with me, and shoot down T.Max
> Devlin's assertion in flames.
Glad to be of service. I have no doubts that this will improve, and my
experience has only been with RedHat. The distribution upgrade a friend
ran on his debian box worked flawlessly afaik (apart from bind spitting
the dummy at some zone files, but that's not linux's fault)
> You've quoted some aspects of Microsoft software that I am aware of and
> I agree with you. However, not all Microsoft software is "crapware". COM
> at its basics is a very elegant design - and it appears in Java too, at
> least in the form of interfaces.
Okay, I'll accept that not everything produced by Microsoft is crap. If it
was, it wouldn't be so popular - but I do think that a corporation with
the resources MS has available should be able to do a lot better.
>> Okay, I'll think of the IDE as civilisation. Think of the compiler
>> [gcc] as the people in the civilisation. Understand? I haven't eaten
>> yet, so I'll use another analogy - think of the IDE as icing on the
>> cake. The compiler is the cake. The cake does not need icing to be
>> useful, and in fact, the icing may make you sick if it's particularly
>> sugar-laden and you haven't eaten yet.
> I'd say "icing on the cake" is a bad analagy in this case. Have you
> ever tried coding a GUI without a class library or an IDE? It takes a
> _lot_ longer and is a very slow process. Sure, you can do it, but why
> bother when there are IDE's and class libraries that make it much easier
> to do. I'd harldy call an IDE in this case "icing on the cake" but a
> necessity, if you want a job done quickly.
No argument here. Use the best tool for the job. My "job" very rarely
involves programming a GUI, which possibly explains my preferences. And
the icing's the bit that makes you want to eat the cake in the first
place, so I think it's a perfect analogy ;-)
>> Anyway, the point I really want to make here is that Visual C++ (or
>> your favourite civilisation of choice, but we'll stick with Microsoft
>> Civilisation [oo, Sid Meir would be pissed]) is a bloated, memory- [and
>> disc space-] hogging piece of crapware. It employs all sorts of
>> completely non-standard, let's-make-it-really-hard-to-port misfeatures,
>> and is the source of all that is Bad and Evil.
> And MFC (the class library) is not much better. However, I wasn't
> thinking of VC++ and MFC, but Borland's Delphi.
No experience, so no comment.
> Someone made the point that gcc is technologically as good as an IDE. I
> question this [in] the light of Delphi on Windows and Kylix on Linux.
Okay, I missed the part and I apologise. I still wonder what voice caused
them to make that point, however.
> Please go back and read what I've said about and IDE and classes. GUI's
> are hard things to create - they get easier with an IDE and good
> classes.
Point taken. GUI's are the scourge of mankind. But they're so pretty!
> I'm arguing that kernel rebuilds are an old requirement that ought not
> to be necessary on a well designed system. Interesting that only UNIXen
> have clung this style of upgrade whilst everyone else has moved on.
And I'm arguing that that's not neccessarily the case. I know RedHat's
upgrade installs an updated kernel for you, with no rebuilds. I would
assume other distributions probably would. But having the ability to
fine-tune the core of the OS is a useful feature for those that need to
get maximum performance out of their machines. Proprietary, closed-source
software simply doesn't allow this.
--
Mike.
Remove "-spam" to mail me. Not that you'd want to.
------------------------------
From: "rgs50" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:15:54 -0400
Then there are no killer OSs at all.
Robert G Smith
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> rgs50 wrote:
> >
> > Yes, Sun and IBM have VLSI chips but they do not have Microsoft in back
of
> > them producing a KILLER OS ( Windows 2000 TWO or whistler or Win NT
64 ).
>
>
> Lose 2000, Lose2002, Mumbler, LoseNT, and LoseNT64 ...
> not a single "Killer OS" no that list
>
> So...try again.
>
>
> > There are also over 300 applications already ported to the Itanium with
over
> > 4,000 ( four thousand ) in the process of being ported to Itanium.
Also
> > when the 386 was introduced it hit the market like a brick hitting a
plate
> > glass window and was selling at 50 % or more than the chips list price
> > because there was so much demand.]
>
> and your point is?
>
> The 386 sold fast because people wanted faster faster faster machines
> for every single desktop
>
> not so any more
>
>
>
> >
> > Robert G Smith
> >
> > 2 + 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:9erv5h$ctg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > Snauk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > > Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Kenny Chaffin wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Not gonna happen. People trust sun servers. What operating system
are
> > > >> > they gonna use on the chip? Solaris is proven on sun hardware,
> > > certainly
> > > >> > not on Itanium or even much used on pentiums....
> > > >>
> > > >> But what about Linux,
> > > >> and IBM's commitment to Linux?
> > >
> > > Linux is one of Intel's biggest customers on the server. Also, the
Linux
> > > camp has the talent to develop the compilers that this chip requires.
> > >
> > > Of course, Itanium, if successful, is the VLIW successor for both
Windows
> > > and Unix.
> > >
> > > However, both Sun and IBM have competing VLIW chips.
> > >
> > > 2 + 2
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> --------== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==-------
> > > >> Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
> > > >> -----------== http://www.newsfeeds.com ==----------
> > > >
> > > >When you see IBM using Linux as opposed to their Unix variant then
maybe.
> > > >Also IBM makes their own chips for a lot of the high end servers.
> > >
> > >
>
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
> can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:27:19 +0200
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Ghost
In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: <snip>
>
> That said -- I think it will improve, and quickly. Consider Konqueror.
> I've heard good things about it; at some point I'll have to get it. If
> it has SSL support, that would be muy neato. :-) And a stable platform
> is a solid one.
>
<snip some more>
Konqueror has SSL support. You just have to install the package
'kdebase-crypto' to get it to work. Very nice indeed. I keep Konq around
for SSL sites, as I run a Gnome desktop and thus prefer Galeon, but I
haven't got SSL for Galeon yet.
Mart
--
Gimme back my steel, gimme back my nerve
Gimme back my youth for the dead man's curve
For that icy feel when you start to swerve
John Hiatt - What Do We Do Now
------------------------------
From: "Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:33:23 +0200
In article <9esfpd$6m9$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Unknown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Let me see, I can either choose AIX-5L, HP-UX, Solaris, Linux 2.4 or
> Windows 64bit, which is unproven. Most people know which one's I will
> consider in a large Itanium server roll out. A clue for the clueless,
> it ain't Windows.
>
> Just because SUN and IBM don't advertise on the end luser magazines like
> .net or PCWorld, doesn't mean they no product's. I guess your ignorance
> is due to too much exposure around Windows.
>
> Matthew Gardiner
Uh, Matthew,
I don't what you did, but your posts don't wrap at 76 nor even 80 colums
anymore. It is bloody annoying.
Thank you,
Mart
--
Gimme back my steel, gimme back my nerve
Gimme back my youth for the dead man's curve
For that icy feel when you start to swerve
John Hiatt - What Do We Do Now
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 22:46:23 +1200
Don't beat me master, don't beat me, I swear I won't do it again ;)
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the blue screen of death
Nobody can hear your screams
----
I am the resident BOFH if you don't like it
go rm -rf /home/luser yourself
"Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <9esfpd$6m9$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Unknown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Let me see, I can either choose AIX-5L, HP-UX, Solaris, Linux 2.4 or
> > Windows 64bit, which is unproven. Most people know which one's I will
> > consider in a large Itanium server roll out. A clue for the clueless,
> > it ain't Windows.
> >
> > Just because SUN and IBM don't advertise on the end luser magazines like
> > .net or PCWorld, doesn't mean they no product's. I guess your ignorance
> > is due to too much exposure around Windows.
> >
> > Matthew Gardiner
>
> Uh, Matthew,
>
> I don't what you did, but your posts don't wrap at 76 nor even 80 colums
> anymore. It is bloody annoying.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mart
>
> --
> Gimme back my steel, gimme back my nerve
> Gimme back my youth for the dead man's curve
> For that icy feel when you start to swerve
> John Hiatt - What Do We Do Now
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 22:52:07 +1200
Chad Myers Balanced Reporting: Windows Rulez, Linux Sux <---- example of
Chads so-called balanced reporting.
Matthew Gardiners balanced reporting: Although Linux had made big inroads
into the desktop market, hardware comptibility is one of the number one
issues on the development radar <------ TRUE balanced reporting.
Notice the difference?
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the blue screen of death
Nobody can hear your screams
----
I am the resident BOFH if you don't like it
go rm -rf /home/luser yourself
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Chad Myers in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Fri, 25 May 2001 00:37:41
> >"Jan Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:3b0d8392$0$56115$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >>
> >> "Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:9ei7m4$j2b$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > > C't is a biased MS-bashing rag just like The Register. I have yet
to
> >> > > see either posted a favorable article of Microsoft.
> >> > >
> >> > > Somehow, millions of people use Word very efficiently and demand
> >> > > even more features from, yet you, all-knowing, all-wise deem it
> >> > > crap because you can't seem to figure it out?
> >> >
> >> > I wouldn't exactly say the below link is biased in anyway.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/19134.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> I would ... this rag is trash and anything quoted from it is equal to
> >> trash...
> >
> >I would as well. Note at the bottom how they're quick to defend VA
> >Linux's obvious death march. Even with MS's best news, they are
> >quick to point out any failings or faults of MS in every single
> >article.
>
> Perhaps the phrase 'balanced reporting' means nothing to you. Guffaw.
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: "Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Opera
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:54:42 +0200
In article <1104_990887593@terry>, "Terry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Many of you seem to be having troubles with your browsers and the
> features some of them have. If you want a really useful, Linux compliant
> browser, try Opera.
>
I just downloaded it to try it. It is good, but it's only claim to fame
is a low memory footprint. I have both Galeon (using the Mozilla's Gecko
rendering engine) and Opera open at the moment, displaying the same page,
and the memory footprint is:
13M Opera
24M Galeon
Difference is that Galeon has Java activated. Without Java Galeon is
about as large as Opera IIRC (haven't used Galeon without Java for ages).
There is *no* noticable difference in rendering speed. I tried a few
pages with Galeon, pure Mozilla, Konqueror and Opera. All are about the
same speed, the only loser is Mozilla because of some lag in UI
interactivity. One note: I cheated on Galeon/Mozilla, I compiled both
from source using a gcc 3.0 snapshot and optimization turned on, and it
makes a noticable difference. Vanilla Mozilla binaries will be slightly
slower I think (haven't tried them).
So if you don't want non-Free (as in speech) software on your machine,
avoid Opera like the plague. If you don't mind, try it, it has its good
points.
Mart
--
Gimme back my steel, gimme back my nerve
Gimme back my youth for the dead man's curve
For that icy feel when you start to swerve
John Hiatt - What Do We Do Now
------------------------------
From: "Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:58:45 +0200
In article <9etael$v31$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Unknown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Don't beat me master, don't beat me, I swear I won't do it again ;)
>
> Matthew Gardiner
>
> --
> I am the blue screen of death
> Nobody can hear your screams
> ----
> I am the resident BOFH if you don't like it go rm -rf /home/luser
> yourself
> "Mart van de Wege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
<snip>
>> I don't what you did, but your posts don't wrap at 76 nor even 80
>> colums anymore. It is bloody annoying.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Mart
Don't worry Matthew, it is partly my fault for wanting to read messages
in the preview pane. That makes it easier to navigate a group with the
keyboard, but it presumes that everyone has a sane linewrap.
Thanks anyway for being considerate,
Mart
--
Gimme back my steel, gimme back my nerve
Gimme back my youth for the dead man's curve
For that icy feel when you start to swerve
John Hiatt - What Do We Do Now
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Gardiner \(BOFH\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: INTEL"S ITANIUM DUE OUT TUES !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 22:58:08 +1200
> Then there are no killer OSs at all.
>
> Robert G Smith
Yes there are, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux 2.4 and AIX-5L, all of them are
Itanium ready, and ready to roll. Windows isn't even ready yet!
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the blue screen of death
Nobody can hear your screams
----
I am the resident BOFH if you don't like it
go rm -rf /home/luser yourself
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Linux beats Win2K (again)
From: Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:43:24 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Yet Linux supports less hardware than Windows does.
Which Windows is that? Linux has always been better than NT at
supporting hardware. Win9x did/does support a few things better than
either, but calling it more "technically advanced" because of that has
to be a joke.
Perhaps Windows 2000? I haven't had the opportunity to try it out,
but from what I hear, its a bit picky about hardware as well.
And it's only true if you equal hardware with "PC peripherals". Linux
support anything from wrist watches to mainframes.
-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
------------------------------
From: pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RIP the Linux desktop
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:06:15 +0100
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> Scotland Yard has been fudging the data for years, by Only reporting
> CONVICTIONS, not crimes reported.
>
> Your crime rate is roughly 5x higher than previously reported,
> and, in fact, you are MUCH more likely to be the victim of a
> burglary, mugging, assault, or murder than the same crime in
> the United States
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! I think I'll take my
chances thanks, lest my grandpa accidentally blows my head off with a
gun from his personal military grade arsenal.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list by posting to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
