Linux-Advocacy Digest #948, Volume #34 Mon, 4 Jun 01 02:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: LINUX PRINTING SUCKS!!!!!!!! (Terry Porter)
Re: Windows makes good coasters (Terry Porter)
Kernel comparisions ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windows makes good coasters (Terry Porter)
Re: UI Importance ("Interconnect")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (Joe Keane)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: UI Importance ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: LINUX PRINTING SUCKS!!!!!!!! (Terry Porter)
Re: UI Importance (Woofbert)
Re: Windows makes good coasters (Terry Porter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: LINUX PRINTING SUCKS!!!!!!!!
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 04:05:06 GMT
On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 21:33:22 GMT, flatfish+++ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:45:37 -0000, Ray Chason
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>A properly configured Linux print system, OTOH, sets up all apps that
>>comply with it, and is no harder to use than Windows.
>
> That's the problem.
>
> How does one go about conjuring up a properly configured Linux print
> system?
One reads the documentation.
>
> Under Windows I plug the beast in and it works.
One would think that apart from playing music thru his pc,
and surfing the web, that the only thing Flattie does is ...
print ?
>
> Under Linux?
It's so easy, you wouldn't believe it Flattie.
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 04:17:04 GMT
On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:09:11 +0800,
Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Never said it wasn't. However, if PSP has something that a graphics artists
> *needs*, then it will be their worthwhile to pay for it.
Sure.
>
>> > PSP (Paint Shop Pro) only costs 100 bucks... and is almost as fully
>> > functional as Photoshop.
>>
>> This is the problem as I see it, Windows *only* costs around $100 -$300,
>> PSP another hundred, Agent another ??, etc, etc.
>
> True. But then again, you get more functionality, ease-of-use, yadda yadda
> blah blah
>>
>> Windows cost of ownership is huge, when you factor in any worthwile
> software.
>
> The whole point of being 'worthwhile' is that it is *worth* your *while*.
> In other words, you are getting what you paid for. Sounds familiar?
Thats debatable. You're paying something and getting something, thats *all*
we know for sure.
>
>> > MS Paint is free too...
>>
>> Are you comparing MS paint with the Gimp ?
>
> Nope. I'm simply pointing out (in my way :) that although something is
> 'free', it doesn't mean that it meets somebody's needs. Nor does it mean
> that because it is free, that it is good.
I have found this to be true for most Windows shareware, and
untrue for most Linux apps.
>
> -Todd
>
>> >
>> > -Todd
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kind Regards
>> Terry
>> --
>> **** ****
>> My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
>> 1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
>> Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
>> Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
>> ** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
>
>
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Kernel comparisions
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 06:56:57 +0200
"pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
> > Don't get me wrong... I like UNIX
> > operating systems. But what you need to
> > understand is that we don't need advertising
> > in here. If you want to debate about the
> > technical merits of operating systems, that's
> > just fine and dandy. If you come across an
> > interesting article, by all means post it.
> > That's exactly what this group is for.
>
> > Besides, If you had the kind of experience with UNIX
> > that you seem to pretend to have, you'd understand
> > why the Linux kernel is completely substandard.
>
> OK, well GPL spiel aside - may I ask why you think why the Linux kernel
> is "completely" substandard ? In the interests of fairness I would like
> you to compare 2.4.x V Win2k, so we are on the same ground.
>
> May make for a more interesting thread :)
Yeah!
One requiest, though. Don't enter GUI, UI, or any such issues to the debate,
please.
I'll start with NT's layered I/O model.
I think that it allow more flexibility than Linux's monolitic model.
Any comments?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 04:27:53 GMT
On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:35:04 +0200, Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9fdcm4$rtq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
>
>> > This is the problem as I see it, Windows *only* costs around $100 -$300,
>> > PSP another hundred, Agent another ??, etc, etc.
>
> I think you meant to say that Windows alone cost 100 - 300$.
Yes you're right, thanks.
>
> I agree that there is big price for good tools on Windows.
> However, you can get similar tools for free, you only need to look.
I just have tosay that I've never found any free windows tools, that are
anywhere near as good as Free Software for Linux.
I'm not saying this to be contraversial Ayende, its my honest experience
over the last 20 years.
>
> http://download.cnet.com/1,10150,0-10077-106-0-1-1,00.html?filterQuery=true&;
> os=&li=2
> List 127 free image editors for Windows.
>
> Is any of them as good as PSP? I don't know.
> You would've to try them and see.
Sure.
>
> I know that IrfanView (which is listed there)
> (http://download.cnet.com/downloads/0-10077-100-5786527.html?tag=st.dl.10077
> -106-1.lst-0-25.5786527) fills every need that I've in image viewer, so I
> don't need to purchase ACDSee.
Yes I recallyou mentioning it before, and Ive saved that post, should
any Windows users ask me for a good viewer:)
>
>
> I don't think that there is much free software for linux that you can't get
> for windows for free.
In my case there is no Windows software that is free, and competes with the
Linux apps I need.
Cgg
Stcc - C compiler for the 8051 series microprocessors
gEDA (notably gschem)- schematic capture
pcb - manual pcb cad program, rubber banding, netlist importation from gEDA
Lyx - frontend to LaTEx for user manuals etc.
I know this sounds specialised (just like Flatfish's needs) and it is, but then
Linux *does* have the apps I need, and for free.
> I list only from downloads.com because it's the easiest place to start
> looking (and because it allows you to screen free software more easily than
> anything else that I've seen).
I'll look there for a decent FTP program for my wifes pc (Win98) as the two
Ive tried from Tucows are buggy and a major pain to use.
>
>> > > MS Paint is free too...
>> >
>> > Are you comparing MS paint with the Gimp ?
>
> For *my* purposes, there isn't any difference between MSPaint, Gimp, PSP,
> and, indeed, Photoshop.
> In fact, I'm more likely to be more productive on MSPaint, because it's a
> very simple program. (I'm not very graphically inclined, as you could've
> guessed. I think that the most that I gotten out of MSPaint is converting
> text to BMP to put as a desktop wallpaper, very good way to covey a message
> message, btw)
Hahaha, totally artistically challenged .... like me!
> Hell, even using the line tool, I can't make a straight line.
> (But give me the function calls... :-D )
LOL!
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:09:50 +1000
flatfish+++ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:43:23 GMT, Woofbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> >No, vi is the only program *you* need to design web sites. The
> >popularity of good web design tools among profesisonal web site
> >designers is proof that GUI design tools are worth paying money for.
>
> I took a course in Aix Sysadmin a couple of years ago and on the day
> the instructor taught vi he brought in a pair of ear muffs because all
> of the beeping (aka frustration's) of newbies trying to use that
> abortion of a program drove him crazy.
>
> Anyone who does anything but churn out code, and that means a
> professional programmer, in vi or Emacs for that matter is nuts.
>
Hey! Emacs is cool. It even gives you *some* syntax highlighting.
I hate switching from Emacs to Vi (or the other way around) and you're on
auto pilot with the keyboard shortcuts grrrrrr.
>
> flatfish+++
> "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
------------------------------
From: Joe Keane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 3 Jun 2001 22:10:06 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>In short, expect AIX, HP-UX, IRIX and other niche Unices to gradually
>find their way to whatever pastures aging OSes go to,
They've been there a few years now.
--
Joe Keane, amateur mathematician
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:21:14 +0200
"Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Yes I recallyou mentioning it before, and Ive saved that post, should
> any Windows users ask me for a good viewer:)
There is also power archiver, (or something like that) that does anything
that WinZIP does, and it free (at least for non-commercial use, IIRC).
> > I don't think that there is much free software for linux that you can't
get
> > for windows for free.
>
> In my case there is no Windows software that is free, and competes with
the
> Linux apps I need.
>
> Cgg
Cgg?
Do you mean GCC?
> Stcc - C compiler for the 8051 series microprocessors
Found a couple of those, but not free.
Found a free Pascal compiler, though
I didn't search very hard, though.
> gEDA (notably gschem)- schematic capture
http://www.pulsonix.com/scmdownload.htm
> pcb - manual pcb cad program, rubber banding, netlist importation from
gEDA
http://www.hdl.co.jp/~kban/kban/index-e.html
> Lyx - frontend to LaTEx for user manuals etc.
At least here I can really help.
ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/systems/win32/bakoma/index.html
http://www.jam-software.com/software.html#X2L
http://www.miktex.org/
> I know this sounds specialised (just like Flatfish's needs) and it is, but
then
> Linux *does* have the apps I need, and for free.
Get the tool for the job.
I wonder if you could use the Stcc under Cygwin, this would seem to fill the
list of your requirements.
> > I list only from downloads.com because it's the easiest place to start
> > looking (and because it allows you to screen free software more easily
than
> > anything else that I've seen).
>
> I'll look there for a decent FTP program for my wifes pc (Win98) as the
two
> Ive tried from Tucows are buggy and a major pain to use.
I use SmartFTP (get it from SmartFTP.com)
They got a little overboard with the visual affects, but it's a very good
program nonetheless.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:25:05 +0200
"Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9ff4fb$h2i$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I hate switching from Emacs to Vi (or the other way around) and you're on
> auto pilot with the keyboard shortcuts grrrrrr.
Muscle memory, I believe. Think of how you type, if you are any good, you do
it blidnly, so you don't need to think about how to type, you need to think
about what you want to type.
I know that I usually don't *think* about what I do when I use software, and
it's annoying to have to think about it, instead of what I want to do with
it.
I think that this is largely why those groups exist in the first place. ;-D
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: LINUX PRINTING SUCKS!!!!!!!!
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 05:39:43 GMT
On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 03:17:16 GMT, flatfish+++ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:19:39 GMT, somebody <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>kosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> stands accused of saying:
>>
>>> I prefer to pay more and get a
>>>nice postscript device and all of these problems go away.
>>
>>...hmm, but what about all that stuff about lower TCO w/ Linux?
Printers all cost money 'somebody' even Windos ones.
>
>
> It's lost amongst the endless hours trying to make Linux work and you
> can multiply that by 10 fold if you are trying to integrate a Linux
> box into a Windows environment.
>
Flatfish is replying to himself again.
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: Woofbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 05:35:41 GMT
In article <GLCS6.8040$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John
Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "John Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:l9xS6.7691$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >> It stikes me that developers could just invent what they like, and
> >> users
> >> could just choose to use what they like.
>
> > That would be nice, but this require a lot more customizibility than
> > most
> > people built into their applications.
> > Take Office & VS UI, you can customized it to your heart's content, but
> > apperantly this, too, annoy users.
>
> You are taking this a different way than I meant. I was making a simpler
> comment, that we shouldn't worry about developers developing crazy UIs.
> If those crazy UIs don't server a purpose, no one will use them.
>
> I think customizable (or 'deeply themed') interfaces are good, but as you
> say they are difficult to achieve.
It depends on the nature of the customizability.
If customizability means making the thing look like some control panel
on Deep Space Nine or a highly intelligent slime mold, then forget it
... I for one don't care what it looks like if the basic gestures used
to interact with it are all wrong.
--
Woofbert: Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
email <woofbert at infernosoft dot com>
web http://www.infernosoft.com/woofbert
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 05:49:11 GMT
On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:21:14 +0200, Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
>> Yes I recallyou mentioning it before, and Ive saved that post, should
>> any Windows users ask me for a good viewer:)
>
> There is also power archiver, (or something like that) that does anything
> that WinZIP does, and it free (at least for non-commercial use, IIRC).
>
>
>> > I don't think that there is much free software for linux that you can't
> get
>> > for windows for free.
>>
>> In my case there is no Windows software that is free, and competes with
> the
>> Linux apps I need.
>>
>> Cgg
>
> Cgg?
>
> Do you mean GCC?
Opps, yes I do mean Gcc.
>
>> Stcc - C compiler for the 8051 series microprocessors
Damn another typo!
I meant to say SDCC.
>
> Found a couple of those, but not free.
I've followed the offerings in this area for years, and
there are no decent FREE Windows compiliers for the 8051 family.
> Found a free Pascal compiler, though
There are a few, and theyre not bad, but I like to integrate
my debugging with GUI apps like DDD, which work well with
SDCC :)
>
> I didn't search very hard, though.
Its a big embedded world out there.
>
>> gEDA (notably gschem)- schematic capture
>
> http://www.pulsonix.com/scmdownload.htm
>
>
>> pcb - manual pcb cad program, rubber banding, netlist importation from
> gEDA
>
> http://www.hdl.co.jp/~kban/kban/index-e.html
>
>> Lyx - frontend to LaTEx for user manuals etc.
>
>
> At least here I can really help.
>
> ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/systems/win32/bakoma/index.html
> http://www.jam-software.com/software.html#X2L
> http://www.miktex.org/
Thanks I'll have alook at them.
>
>> I know this sounds specialised (just like Flatfish's needs) and it is, but
> then
>> Linux *does* have the apps I need, and for free.
>
> Get the tool for the job.
Too right mate!
> I wonder if you could use the Stcc under Cygwin, this would seem to fill the
> list of your requirements.
But why would I want to do that, all my Linux tools work so well together, plus
this whole development environment is free. I can make more like it and not
break the law :)
SDCC is a native Linux C compiler, (ported to Windows I think).
>
>> > I list only from downloads.com because it's the easiest place to start
>> > looking (and because it allows you to screen free software more easily
> than
>> > anything else that I've seen).
>>
>> I'll look there for a decent FTP program for my wifes pc (Win98) as the
> two
>> Ive tried from Tucows are buggy and a major pain to use.
>
> I use SmartFTP (get it from SmartFTP.com)
Eeks thats the one I *don't* like!
> They got a little overboard with the visual affects, but it's a very good
> program nonetheless.
Interestingly I just wanted something like the Linux 'gftp' which has less
visual effects than SmartFTP, but is so easy to use!
It may be a matter of personal preference ?
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
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