Linux-Advocacy Digest #978, Volume #34 Tue, 5 Jun 01 07:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Windows advocate of the year. (Donn Miller)
Re: UI Importance (Woofbert)
Re: Why should an OS cost money? (Nick Condon)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) ("Patrick Ford")
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) ("Patrick Ford")
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) ("Patrick Ford")
Re: UI Importance (Woofbert)
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (David Fox)
Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do ("Stuart Fox")
Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do ("Stuart Fox")
Re: The usual Linux spiel... (was Re: Is Open Source for You?) (Shane Phelps)
Re: Argh - Ballmer ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: Linux on Itanium (Kenny Chaffin)
Re: UI Importance ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: UI Importance ("Ayende Rahien")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Windows advocate of the year.
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 05 Jun 2001 06:14:06 -0400
"Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Not all windows advocates are bad.
> They are capable of reasoned, rational arguments (though you might not
> believe it with the amount of drivel coming out of people like Chad
> Myers).
...and Jan Johansen, or whatever his name is. And then there's
Ubercat, who is bad because he almost never posts anything on-topic.
You mostly hear things out of him like "You're an idiot!", and that's
pretty much it (like he should be the one talking).
> I would like to nominate Ayende Rahien. If all windows advocates were
> like this, this group would be a much better place. Heck, if all Linux
> advocates were like this, he group would be a better place.
I would say Erik F., but at times he makes excuses for Microsoft
intead of just admitting "well, OK, MS really shouldn't do things this
way".
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------------------------------
From: Woofbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:14:24 GMT
In article <9fhjt8$49d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
<don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Woofbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> > But for teaching the basics of programming, when you don't want all that
> > complicated UI stuff getting in the way of what you're really teaching,
> > a CLI is a good thing to have.
>
> I agree absolutely about this point.
> Trying to teach GUI when first leaning to program is a bitch.
Now comes the hard part...
When I learned programm-err, Software Engineering, I interacted with
computers with decks of punched cards, rows of switches and lights, or,
joy of joys, an interactive teletype! Computers were relatively simple,
and magazines that explained to the hobbyist what CP/M was and why you
should write programs for it were still in the future. To write a
bubble-sort program, you punched up the program on cards, punched up
some more cards with made-up data (these you could shuffle), and gave
them to the i/o jerk--err, I mean I/O Clerk. He would feed them to the
card reader, and half an hour later you'd get your printout. There was
pretty much nothing between you and your algorithm ... and computers did
pretty much nothing for you. Writing your own bubble sort, and having it
prove on the printout that it actually worked, was pretty exciting.
But nowadays, we use super-microcomputers. (Anyone besides me remember
thatterm?) We have amazing wonderful GUIs and networked operating
systems that bend over backwards for you -- nay, do three-and-a-half
Gainders off the high dive! We use computers to play the coolest video
games, create fantastic images with Photoshop, and make silly porno
movies with Flash. My nephew is learning to write programs on his Lego
Mindstorm system, which has its own visual programming environment.
Given all that, who wants to learn indexed loops, if-then-else, and case
statements; who wants to wrap his brain around doubly-linked lists or
binary trees? How do you teach the nitty gritty of software engineering
to a kid born with USB mouse in his hand?
--
Woofbert: Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
email <woofbert at infernosoft dot com>
web http://www.infernosoft.com/woofbert
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: Why should an OS cost money?
Date: 5 Jun 2001 10:21:46 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> You're confusing cost with price. The retail price of a boxed set may
>> include installation support, but cost of a boxed set only includes
>> the media and the manual. The difference between the price and the
>> cost is the gross margin.
>
>Oh, bullshit. We're talking about the cost to the consumer, not the
>cost to the manufacturer.
What do you mean "we", pale-face? Let's review what I wrote:
> Selling boxed sets is a way of covering the cost of the media. The retail
> price of box-plus-manual covers the costs of making them.
> So how do you sell support? Well, first you consider where your costs are.
> Your costs are keeping support geeks on staff to answer support calls. i.e.
> *salary*. They are only indirectly related to how many boxes you sell, or
> how many incidents you deal with. If both of those values are zero, you
> still have pay your staff, so the obvious model is subscription based,
> which is how most support contracts are sold. It also has the added
> advantage of encouraging the vendor to make their stuff as reliable as
> possible, which the incident model doesn't.
Seems pretty clearly about vendors to me.
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: "Patrick Ford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 5 Jun 2001 22:32:53 +1200
Stephen Edwards wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rotten168) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >Edward Rosten wrote:
> >>
> >> >> > I'm sure the brits will have some concocted story about how they
> >> >> > REALLY invented the Internet first and Europe had had the WWW years
> >> >> > before the FTP rfc was even submitted.
> >>
> >> Chad, tell me, do you know the difference between FTP and HTTP? Did you
> >> also know that the WWW started in CERN (in europe)?
> >>
> >>
> >> -Ed
> >>
> >
> >Although I like and agree with Chad, it's unfortunate that this thread
> >has turned into a "my country is better than yours thread".
> >
> >Look people, there's almost no state of a human mindset lower than that
> >of patriotism, no notion is more pathetic than to be proud of something
> >*you were born into*. Drop the patriotism folks.
> >
>
> Spoken like a true communist.
You're weird!
--
--
My domain contains .co, not .com as appears in the header.
Patrick Ford Auckland, Aotearoa (New Zealand)
------------------------------
From: "Patrick Ford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 5 Jun 2001 22:33:58 +1200
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "Patrick Ford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I guess you expect everyone in the world to know your quaint little
> > > slang (which sounds retarded).
> >
> > You Seppos have been doing that for many years. Why is it suddenly
> > offensive to have thrown back at you what you have regarded as normal
> > all your life?
> >
> > > Stephen was merely educating our blinded Brit that not everyone
> > > lives in Britain.
> >
> > There was no Brit, blinded or otherwise involved. I live as far from
> > Britain as it is possible to get. You really have no idea of the world
> > outside your village have you?
>
> Exactly what Stephen and I are talking about =)
> Thank you for exemplifying it.
You are most welcome.
--
--
My domain contains .co, not .com as appears in the header.
Patrick Ford Auckland, Aotearoa (New Zealand)
------------------------------
From: "Patrick Ford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 5 Jun 2001 22:35:57 +1200
pip wrote:
> Patrick Ford wrote:
> > The rest of the world has been putting upwith your Seppo cultural
> > arrogance without a murmer for years. You don't like it when it's thrown
> > back at you as a joke do you? Squeal like a stuck pig don't you?
>
> Employment Note: "must not employ as a cultural embassy"
O h dear! ĞDid I overdo the tact and thus obscure the point I wanted to
make?
--
--
My domain contains .co, not .com as appears in the header.
Patrick Ford Auckland, Aotearoa (New Zealand)
------------------------------
From: Woofbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:33:40 GMT
In article <9fiag8$odc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
<don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Nico Coetzee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > NOPE! I have many examples, using just normal drag without any buttons -
> > and it still screws up. The main problem is that it doesn't do it all
> > the time, which make it difficult to figure out:
> >
> > a) am I doing something wrong, OR
> > b) is the OS doing something wrong
That depends on who made the OS. If it's Macintosh, then the OS made the
mistake. If it's Windows or Some X windows manager, then you made the
mistake. This is both a serious design philosophy and a poke in the ribs
of advocates of certain operating systems.
> There are some special cases, such as trying to copy the icons of the
> Control Panel, trying to copy to the start menu, etc.
>
> > Secondly, by using aliases, I have created a "safe" way of deleting
> > files (with the rm command in Linux). It now moves files to a trash
> > directory, from where all files older then 3 months gets permenantly
> > deleted, using a cron job.
>
> In other works, you've re-created the Recycle Bin. :-D
Who remembers this saying? In computers, every mistake is made three
times: once in mainframes, once in minis, and once in micros.
I guess it's time to revise that saying:
In GUIs, every innovation is made seven times: once on Macintosh, once
on Windows, and five times on all the X windows managers. }: )
> What do you mean, though, using aliases?
At the root of the filesystem there's an alias called "trash" which
points to some usefully obscure place in the filesystem. From any
directory you can move any file to /trash, and it ends up going to
wherever the trash really is.
Do I get a gold star? }: )
--
Woofbert: Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
email <woofbert at infernosoft dot com>
web http://www.infernosoft.com/woofbert
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Fox)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 05 Jun 2001 03:39:25 -0700
I don't see any yelling for government intervention in the post you
are replying to.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (longhaul) writes:
> Not to try and belabor the point but why do all you techies gang up on
> Gates' company and yell for government intervention. Are your anti
> thoughts based upon pride of Unix? Do you not believe that the
> fundamentals of MSFT offer a good investment? This seems to be a very
> emotional stock. Kind of like the environmentalists vs. big oil.
> It's the Unix guru's vs. MSFT. Me? I'm just looking for a good
> investment and thought I had one (finally, way of the fact) in MSFT at
> about $60 this year.
>
> On Tue, 29 May 2001 13:35:37 -0400, unicat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >The following are the editorial opinions of the author- no more
> >no less...
> >
> >While the bloated giant Microsoft is buying favorable publicity
> >in News-fluff magazines with promises of big chunks of
> >advertising for the X-flop video game, smart firms are realizing
> >the truth - Microsoft is in serious trouble.
> >
> >Not that they don't have loads of cash on hand, they can create
> >imaginary cashflow any time they want just by moving their own
> >money from one pocket to the other...
> >
> >But they are not capturing the hearts and minds of the techno-
> >savvy, and their standards are going over like the proverbial turd
> >in a punchbowl. Active directory, the MS proprietary version of XML,
> >and the .net initiative, all are seeing adoption rates down around 1/5th
> >
> >of the overall market.
> >
> >But worse, major manufacturers are beginnning to break ranks. IBM will
> >spend a billion dollars beefing up Linux this year, and HP is not far
> >behind.
> >
> >Sun, which has done the best of any of the UNIX vendors mostly because
> >of their
> >steadfast refusal to corrupt their product line with MS pollution, has
> >now bought
> >a manufacturer of Linux servers to augment its low-end systems.(Sun, by
> >the way,
> >is roughly the same size as MS, why everyone gets so excited about a
> >pipsqueak company like MS is beyond me).
> >
> >But one development that should have rocked the newsworld is that
> >struggling
> >UNIX maker SGI is dropping all support for MS Windows based platforms.
> >
> >This is so illustrative of the real nature of the computer marketplace
> >that it bears
> >more examination. Two years ago, a troubled SGI fell under the influence
> >of MS, and
> >was seduced into adding a WNT workstation to its product line. But
> >instead of a windfall
> >the new systems caused a near collapse of the company. Customers lost
> >confidence in
> >SGI's core UNIX systems, fearing that they would eventually be phased
> >out, sales
> >plumetted, and the stock fell from $24 to $2. Finally coming to their
> >senses, SGI has excorsized
> >the MS demon, refocused on UNIX (and Linux) and is now on the road to
> >recovery.
> >BTW - their stock is an incredibly undervalued bargain, you could buy
> >the whole company for
> >less than the value of their assets.
> >
> >SGI is hardly a market leader, but their realization of the detrimetnal
> >effect of supporting
> >windows simply reinforces the mass move away from Microsoft being
> >carried out more
> >surreptitiously by the larger manufacturers.
> >
> >Microsoft isn't laying still, they are hedging their bets by
> >diversifying into hardware. They
> >have announced the X-box (how you make money by selling a box that you
> >have to subsidize
> >by 1/3 of its sales price remains a mystery, but it might explain rumors
> >that production levels
> >are being held back significantly - bad news for games authors, but hey,
> >dance with the devil,
> >and you deserve what you get). And of course there is the new Microsoft
> >PC, which will attempt
> >to do away with all legacy standards(ISA, PCI, parallel ports, serial
> >ports, etc.) so that everyone
> >is forced to upgrade to it in order to run the new version of Windows
> >Xtremely Proprietary.
> >
> >Or... the hardware makers that MS is betraying MIGHT, just might, decide
> >to fight back by investing
> >in Linux as an alternative OS..... wait a minute, they're already DOING
> >THAT. Maybe PC makers
> >aren't as dumb as they look.
> >
> >Any way, enough MS bashing for now. We'll just close by saying that the
> >author will bet anyone reading
> >an imaginary nickel that MS stock is down to $10/share by 2003....
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------
From: "Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:40:14 +1200
"Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9fi8iq$md7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:oI%S6.7225$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:9fhjt5$49d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> > > >
> > > > If you read "Inside Windows 2000", it thoroughly debunks the myth
that
> > > it's
> > > > bad for stability (from a guy with access to the source, and a guy
> with
> > > > um... SoftICE)
> > >
> > > I don't have this book, and orderring it will take a month.
> > > Can you give a list of the reasons?
> >
> > Basically, the reason is that the way NT is designed, if the GUI
subsystem
> > faults, then the OS blue screens anyways, whether or not it runs in
kernel
> > space. The OS's main thread drops to a blue screen when the GUI
subsystem
> > dies.
> >
>
> Okay, why I don't like this?
> Why would the kernel BSOD just because the GUI crash? It should restart
it,
> not stop.
>
> This doesn't sound right, and it's certainly not an excuse.
> It would crash *anyway* ?
>
> Beside, I understand that Win2K2 can boot without GUI.
That's pretty much the explaination, I'll dig it out from the book
tomorrow.
------------------------------
From: "Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:43:11 +1200
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <9fhcis$bqn$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stuart Fox wrote:
.
> >>
> >Have you thought about where their profit comes from? That's right,
their
> >users. If they don't keep them happy, they'll lose them.
> >
> >
>
>
> It's loosers not users.
>
Why are they loose? Did they escape from their cage? Or do you mean
losers?
Either way, if you refer to users as losers, you'll lose them.
------------------------------
From: Shane Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The usual Linux spiel... (was Re: Is Open Source for You?)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:05:26 +1100
Stephen Edwards wrote:
>
> Seven rabid koala bears with eucalyptus spittle dribbling from their mouths
> told me that [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shane Phelps) wrote in <3B1B4D3D.41B1E559
> @acay.com.au>:
>
> >Edward Rosten wrote:
> >>
> >[ snip ]
> >>
> >> Actually, there was one thread I'm glad I didn't miss: it was a problem
> >> with gcc x-posted to comp.lang.c. Aaron got killfiled by all the regular
> >> posters on there.
> >>
> >> -Ed
> >>
> >
> >
> >Sounds like Chad on comp.security.ssh :-)
> >
> >[ sigsnip - and it's not even an annoyingly long one ;-) ]
>
> I can't believe I ever felt guilty about having six
> lines of text in my .signature, after seeing Kookis'
> sig.
Now did I mention any names :-) ?????
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Argh - Ballmer
Date: 5 Jun 2001 11:03:20 GMT
Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: That is quite tricky, though.
: Apperantly, using a DLL is enough to make the FSF believe that the
: application that call this DLL should be GPLed.
If your program is based on a GPL'd program, or links to a GPL'd
program, then it is a derived work, according to the GPL license,
which YOU agreed to, and furthermore, by using the GPL'd program in
this fashion, you AGREED to release derived works either under the GPL
or not at all.
No one is forcing you to do anything. You don't have to use GPL'd
code if you don't want to. But if you do, you have to agree not to
restrict the freedom of those who use that portion of your code that
is derived from it.
: What about D/COM/+ objects?
: What about SOAP, for that matter? UDDI?
These are currently allowed, but shouldn't be. They are known
loopholes in the current GPL and will be removed in future versions.
OTOH . . . .the GPL may not be the best license for library code, and
even the FSF has conceded this. That is what the LGPL is for, and I
believe that calling a LGPL'd library by any means is expressly
allowed.
. . . .
: MS has the funds to develop a parallel implentation, most of the OSS
: developers doesn't have anywhere near the resources that MS has.
: Hell, I would say that all of them doesn't. Maybe even put together.
Coming from someone who by all appearances is a paid astroturfer, that
is a pretty startling admission . . .
You say all the "OSS developers" don't have the resources that M$ has
. . . yet . . . they still are enough of a threat to the monopoly that
M$ allegedly doesn't have . . . to justify paying you and at least two
other people to spread FUD in this relatively unimportant forum alone.
Wow.
I knew we were good.
I didn't know until recently we were so good that the world's biggest
propaganda machine would start going around telling everyone!
Joe
------------------------------
From: Kenny Chaffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Linux on Itanium
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 05:02:52 -0600
In article <9fghoq$q8l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> "Intel has teamed with Linux vendors to bring the open source OS to the new
> chip. And those vendors are eager to raise Linux to a high-performance
> platform. "We now have a chance to offer Linux as a first-class operating
> system across the whole spectrum, from embedded applications to the
> enterprise," said Michael Tiemann, chief technical officer at Red Hat. Intel
> was one of the first equity investors in Red Hat in 1998.
> http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2768445,00.html
>
> Intel knows a mass market when they see one.
>
> 2 + 2
>
>
>
Cool!
This could _really_ be the beginning of the end for Microsoft...
KAC
--
Kenny A. Chaffin
KAC Website Design - http://www.kacweb.com
Custom/Contract Programming, Graphics, Design
Poetry Page: http://www.kacweb.com/poems/
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:00:13 +0200
"Woofbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Given all that, who wants to learn indexed loops, if-then-else, and case
> statements; who wants to wrap his brain around doubly-linked lists or
> binary trees?
I do. I like the *logic* of the program, not the presentation of it. Hell, I
wrote a spare matrix for *fun*. (It's a monsterous class of about 700 lines
of C++ code, which I hand out to people I hate).
Beside, CLI makes it simple to show the algoritm without obscuring the code
with the UI.
> How do you teach the nitty gritty of software engineering
> to a kid born with USB mouse in his hand?
No me, I tend to give assignments like:
#include <stdio.h>
int main(){
unsigned int intArr[10],i;
for (i=0;i<10;i++) {
i[intArr] = !!i;
printf("%u ",i[intArr]);
}
return 0;
}
What is the the output of this program?
You *see* why I'm not a good teacher? (Although, after one of *my* classes,
they will be able to read *anyone's* code.)
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:05:06 +0200
"Woofbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Who remembers this saying? In computers, every mistake is made three
> times: once in mainframes, once in minis, and once in micros.
>
> I guess it's time to revise that saying:
>
> In GUIs, every innovation is made seven times: once on Macintosh, once
> on Windows, and five times on all the X windows managers. }: )
You forgot Amiga, Be, and XP (total new UI, deserve its own category. They
even fixed the start button problem that sent Tog raving {but it doesn't
stay that way if you expand the taskbar, pity} ).
There was also Xeros, AtheOS, Palm, and maybe CE (does it deserve its own
category?).
------------------------------
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