Linux-Advocacy Digest #113, Volume #35 Sun, 10 Jun 01 18:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Will MS get away with this one? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Will MS get away with this one? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Microsft IE6 smart tags (T. Max Devlin)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Will MS get away with this one?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:19 GMT
Said Peter Hayes in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:14:34
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:20:45 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> Said Peter Hayes in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 20:05:42
>> >On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:35:39 -0600, Dave Martel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >wrote:
>> [...]
>> >This really sums up all that is wrong with Microsoft.
>> >
>> >They produce OSs that brought computing to the masses.
>>
>> That really sums up all that is mistaken about your thinking.
>
>Really Max, learn to control your anti-Microsoft reflexes :-)
Why?
>Who were the major players in the early 80's home/office computing market?
Commodore pretty much owned the territory. Apples were popular with the
richer folk. Atari was doing good business. That was the home market.
There was no home/office market in the early 80s.
>IBM/Microsoft with their PC/XT and Apple with the Lisa and Macintosh. DOS
>and, later, Windows, together with the cloning of the IBM BIOS outcompeted
>Apple's closed expensive hardware/software solution.
Well, it competed. It could only "outcompete" if it could somehow be
both a commodity PC and a slick high priced proprietary system at the
same time, and it can't do that. Apple still sells millions of
Macintoshes a year, did you know that?
>Be ever so slightly grateful to IBM/Microsoft, else we'd be hostage to
>Apple.
I was never "hostage" to Apple. I liked their systems. They're still
better for many people and easier than a PC. Just more expensive. I
don't have to be grateful to Microsoft for anything. It isn't rhetoric;
it is knowledge and honesty. They really did do nothing but harm. We'd
have all been better off with a better open architecture than the PC to
begin with, and Microsoft only managed to prevent development of the
hardware (IRQ problems, anyone? 640K barrier?) years behind where
competitive markets would normally have had it.
>With their closed architecture Apple would be far more predatory than
>Microsoft.
That is impossible. Apple makes hardware; you can't be predatory in a
software market if you are only making money selling hardware. Apple
has always had a great balance between compatibility and proprietary
value-add, I think.
>You'd have a lot more to moan about then...
Don't confuse your imagination with history or your delusions with
facts, Peter.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Will MS get away with this one?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:20 GMT
Said LShaping in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 07:17:17 GMT;
>Peter Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Dave Martel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Ian Pulsford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>> >How long will it be before
>>> >IE begins editing out certain words with suitable M$ replacements from
>>> >webpages?
>
>>> Or inserting Microsoft's own ads onto every page Windows users view.
>
>>This really sums up all that is wrong with Microsoft.
>>They produce OSs that brought computing to the masses. They may not be
>>great, but they generally work for most users. They produce a reasonably
>>competent server/workstation OS (W2K). They produce reasonably competent
>>office applications. But their business ethics appear to come from the
>>gutter.
>
>Yup. Only an deranged zealot would deny that Microsoft has done some
>good.
You mean on purpose, or by accident? Is it "good" if it is only by
accident?
>Fortunately, the court case is shedding much needed light on
>Microsoft's business practices.
You want some real fun, check out the evidence from the Caldera case.
http://www.drdos.com/fullstory/incomp.html
>Other executives at Microsoft deserve some of the credit. Steve
>Ballmer apparently is as brutal. I share your empathy with what
>Microsoft could have been. Programmers must have "compassion and
>vision" as the old song goes. Besides the attempted genocide,
>Microsoft has become a perpetual dark cloud over the computer world.
I don't get the "empathy with what MS could have been." They have
always been nothing but the 'attempted genocide dark cloud.' This silly
naive idea you people have that somehow they aren't just a predatory,
anti-competitive criminal monopolist that has never competed at all,
despite the fact that their products actually nominally function is not
really very bright. I know I sound like an incredible zealot when I say
that, but the force of my emphasis is not provided to somehow make my
case more strongly because it is born of simple zealotry. The emphasis
comes because of how truly silly and naive *your* assumptions are.
Picking out which executives at Microsoft are responsible is
counter-productive. It is the *corporation* which is the problem. The
executives, individually, are probably just incompetent businessmen.
Sure, Gates and Ballmer should go to jail, and maybe a half dozen
others, but that isn't the real issue. The real issue is the
indescribably severe but transparent damage done to the technology world
by Microsoft's anti-engineering forced on the public.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:22 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:22
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:11:21 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:02:24
>
>>>>We were discussing one of them. To bring up the other, particularly if
>>>>what you say is true, is nothing but confabulation intended to beg the
>>>>question to begin with. If you have to add religion to show that
>>>>patriotism is bad, then patriotism isn't bad.
>>>
>>>That doesn't make any sense at all.
>>
>>I don't understand. Why doesn't it make sense? We were talking about
>>patriotism. Someone said patriotism is bad. Then later they started
>>talking about religion and patriotism. Now, why would they do that,
>>unless to say that patriotism alone is somehow not bad?
>
>Um, because they are comparable?
Now you're just begging the question again. It as if you *need* to
claim that patriotism is "comparable" with religion, because religion is
bad, and you want patriotism to be bad, so you equate the two. Do you
see why this isn't a convincing argument for your point that patriotism
itself is somehow not good?
>>>>I think anyone who claims that they know how other's "should" act is
>>>>something of a fascist at heart. Simple bigotry I have no problem with,
>>>>which is why I support the ideal of patriotism.
>>>
>>>In that case everyone is a fascist, thus nulling the term.
>>
>>I don't understand. What is "nulling the term"? Is that some
>>transplanted technical phrase pretending to be a metaphor or something?
>
>Making the term meaningless.
To you, or in some metaphysical dictionary that holds the 'true' meaning
of terms?
>>I did point out that anyone might very well be "a fascist at heart",
>>yes. That doesn't make all bigotry fascist, or make the term fascist
>>meaningless somehow, no.
>
>If everyone's a fascist, then there's no point using the term. The
>same as you wouldn't describe someone as a human.
If everyone is a fascist, then there is no point in using the term as a
label for an individual person, no. Does that mean it doesn't have any
meaning? No. It is an abstraction, kid. A *characteristic*, not a
*category*. Get it? If everyone is fascist, then this is what *gives
meaning* to the term fascist. It is that tendency to believe ourselves
correct and all others wrong. It is related to bigotry. It is really
only an issue when dealing with nationalist politics, which is why it is
related to the discussion at hand, on patriotism.
Basically, you are trying to claim that all patriotism is fascism, or
religion, or something else other than what it is, which is patriotism,
so that you can claim it is bad. Apparently, you do not like
patriotism. We get that. What you still haven't even begun to explain
(but have generally indicated you are unable to explain, by your
equating patriotism to religion, and your desire to 'null the term'
fascism) is why you think patriotism is a bad thing.
>>>>Unfortunately, it does, and unfortunately, it is.
>>>
>>>It might be the best compared to all the scabby asian and african
>>>countries etc, but compared to Western developed countries, it isn't.
>>
>>I'm afraid I would have to question your ability to discuss the matter
>>reasonably, if you need to throw aspersions like "scabby" around.
>
>You know what I mean.
I thought I did. I think the term 'scabby' when used like that is
derogatory. You meant to insult asian and african countries, somehow
declaring without examination that they are not 'civilized'. Since you
show a desire to denigrate whole countries, it seems odd that you would
find patriotism, a desire to celebrate one's own country, to be a bad
thing.
Perhaps you know what I mean.
>>>>Oh, bullshit. Pessimistic over-exuberance is not a rational argument.
>>>Not bullshit at all.
>>Wow. What a truly convincing argument you provide.
>And you.
Well, it was moderate and accurate; that is all I can do. If only you
had done as much.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:22 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:21
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:20:46 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:58:32
>
>>>I'd hardly call the Soviet Union a civilised country.
>>
>>Then you're begging the question.
>
>Is that all you can come up with?
That is all I need to, until you address the point reasonably.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:24 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:23
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:11:22 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:02:10
>>>On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:34:24 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
>
>>>>AFAIK, you are the only one to mention saluting anything.
>>>
>>>You knew what he meant.
>>
>>Yes, I did. Did you know what I meant? That seems more doubtful.
>
>Not if you continue to word things so badly.
I'm sorry if you're insulted, but I have to point out that the problem
is on your end. You are confused and muddle-headed. That is not my
fault. It is, however, my problem, and I will try to help. Ask
questions, and stop avoiding logical fallacies.
Here, this might help: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm
[...]
>In Holland they get personal freedom. Unlike the US.
Please explain.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:25 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:24
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:11:23 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:02:15
>>>On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:34:25 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
>>>>>No, because he feels that a negative view on patriotism equates to a
>>>>>positive view on communism.
>>>>
>>>>That sounds more like sound reason, rather than paranoia.
>>>
>>>No, it's unhealthy paranoia.
>>
>>Not a very compelling rebuttal.
>
>It's unhealthy paranoia no matter how many times you try to avoid the
>point by trying to insult the methods of my replies.
Because you say it is so it is so, so I am wasting my time trying to
find out why you say it is so? Wow. What a compelling argument. Not.
>>>>>And secondly because he has an irrational
>>>>>paranoia of communism.
>>>>
>>>>Communists do not believe in individual civil rights.
>>>
>>>I know many communists who believe in individual civil rights.
>>
>>Well, I know many Republicans who believe in a woman's right to choose,
>>too. Nevertheless, this makes them failed republicans, according to
>>modern political consensus.
>
>Yet more irrelevances. You must be really desperate now.
If you cannot address the points, then you cannot address them. It has
nothing to do with relevance. It is a matter of your being confused and
muddle-headed.
>>>>For someone who
>>>>does believe in individual civil rights to believe communists are
>>>>abhorrent and mistaken is not irrational. Quite the opposite; it is
>>>>perfectly logical and appropriate.
>>>
>>>Erm, are you feeling alright?
>>
>>Do you have a point, or are you just riffing?
>
>My point is that you're talking right out of your arse.
I'll presume that means you are just riffing.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:26 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:25
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:11:24 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:02:18
>>>On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:34:27 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
>
>>>>>While at the same time, with the other hand, murdering people at Kent State,
>>>>>Grant Park, The Bowery and Washington Square, etc. etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>>As always, you can tell when someone's position is shakey when they
>>>>start using metaphoric, rather than analytic, speech. People were
>>>>killed at Kent State and these other places, certainly. They were not,
>>>>however, murdered.
>>>
>>>Playing words games won't help you now.
>>
>>I'm just correcting your word games. Pretending otherwise won't help
>>you now, it won't help you later, it won't help you ever.
>
>Deary me, if you don't try and get back in the argument soon, instead
>of just spouting off irrelevancies, it might look like you've conceded
>defeat.
It has been five posts now since you've actually addressed the issues,
rather than the discussion. Are you a troll?
>>>>>Actually, the united states has one of the WORST records of human rights
>>>>>violations of any "civilized" country in the world.
>>>>
>>>>Compared to whom?
>>>
>>>Canada, Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Belgium,
>>>Italy, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Mexico, Poland...
>>
>>Mexico? Sorry, no. They had indigenous populations wiped out, too, and
>>the USA has NEVER sunk to the level of political persecution as Mexico.
>>Most others, I'm sure, have equally sordid, if less commonly known,
>>histories. You obviously just want to hate the United States for some
>>reason. Mere bigotry, I would expect.
>
>OK then, I'll take out Mexico. Now you can try and show the US
>superiority to all the other countries. Good luck.
Why should I bother trying to prove to an ass that which the ass denies
is true? Even if the US were "superior to all other countries", as you
have claimed it is, it wouldn't make any difference to an ass.
Get back on the point, and try to explain why patriotism is a bad thing,
and then maybe you won't seem like a troll.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:27 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:27
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:11:25 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:02:21
>>>On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:34:28 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
>>> (T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>>>
>>>>--
>>>>T. Max Devlin
>>>> *** The best way to convince another is
>>>> to state your case moderately and
>>>> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>>>
>>>You obviously don't care about convincing anyone.
>>
>>Guffaw. I noticed you responded to my sig, rather than responding to my
>>case. Perhaps you just don't want to be convinced?
>
>I responded to your case also. Maybe you're just too fucked up to be
>able to follow threads properly.
You mean you made a whole separate reply just to the sig, even though
you'd already replied to my post? That's fucked up. Get a grip.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsft IE6 smart tags
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:28 GMT
Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:08:35
>"Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:9fvju8$k1u$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Regarding Microsoft's networth, at one stage, it was at the same amount at
>> General Electric, however, if you wanted the REAL networth, it would be
>> substantially less. I would say, $200B, maybe a few more, but not much
>> more. General Electic, prior to the buyout of Honeywell, is valued at
>around
>> $500B-$600B. Many tech stocks are way, way, way overvalued due to naive
>> idiots buying into buzz word orientated business's that have no real long
>> term business plan or goals.
>
>Actually, the reason I want net worth is to find things out about other
>companies.
>I sometimes post stuff that would be much more interesting if I could add
>small tidbits like, "X could buy Y for pocket change".
Actually, Ayende, if you don't mind the advice, it would just make you
look foolish.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:08:29 GMT
Said drsquare in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:20
>On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 01:34:47 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> (Rotten168 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
>>drsquare wrote:
>
>>> >W2k rockz and linux suxors. Need I say more? :)
>>>
>>> Yeah, American Windows and foreign Linux. Now what does that tell you?
>>
>>Linux is a flavor of an American OS.
>
>Written from scratch by a Finn...
Well, the kernel was by a Finn. When most people say "Linux" today,
they are actually referring to GNU/Linux (see
http://www.fsf.org/events/rms-nyu-2001-transcript.txt for pronunciation
guide). GNU, the balance of the operating system we call Linux, is
international in scope, but the project was started by Richard M.
Stallman, an American.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list by posting to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
