Linux-Hardware Digest #131, Volume #13           Wed, 28 Jun 00 04:13:07 EDT

Contents:
  LT modems ("Jon")
  Re: insmod failed? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  Re: Microstar versus asus k7v (Rick 'r3tina' Laman)
  Re: Modem help please!!! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  Re: Network Unreachable (Lew Pitcher)
  Re: Promise RAID w/Redhat 6.2 (Miroslav =?iso-8859-2?Q?Fl=EDdr?=)
  Re: Slim cases for rack-mounted solution (Nick Kew)
  Re: problem with disk geomtry reporting (Kenneth Rørvik)
  Re: Hang during boot (need advice) (Kenneth Rørvik)
  Re: Strange Lilo "LI" problems ("Douglas W. Martin")
  Re: Slim cases for rack-mounted solution (Chris Harshman)
  Re: hp colorado eide travan tape drive ("Rask0")
  Adaptec 1542 SCSI card and .. ("Rask0")
  test ("Rask0")
  Re: U160SCSI in redhat??? ("Douglas W. Martin")
  Re: Linux, Quake2 and a PS/2 Mouse ("Ross Goodley")
  Re: Strange Lilo "LI" problems ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LT modems
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:34:57 +1000

I have an ltmodem (a winmodem) in my Gateway notebook. There is a lucent
driver at linmodems.org for it but I cannot seem to get it to work.
Something about the "ltmodem module not found", and I cannot open, say
/dev/modem in minicom.

Is it possible to get this to work? I am using Redhat 6.2.



------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: insmod failed?
Crossposted-To: 
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.setup
Date: 28 Jun 2000 01:54:45 -0400

In comp.os.linux.questions Devon Harding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's actually enabled at boot up, but fails at 'insmod 3c509'. After the
> system has comeup, I can then manually do 'insmod 3c509' then 'ifconfig eth1
> 192.168.0.1' insmod seems to timeout on boot.

Isn't there an "after" and "before" directive one can use in modules.conf
(I am completely new to Unix, so am not sure of the name)? You may want to
force one of the drivers to wait until the other driver has installed by
using that.

------------------------------

From: Rick 'r3tina' Laman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microstar versus asus k7v
Crossposted-To: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:15:01 GMT

The K7V is simply great. I don't have any experience with Microstar though, but
Asus is always top notch quality. I recently installed a K7V with an 700MHz
Athlon for my brother, and it's working great. Even got his old 100MHz SDRAM
working at 133MHz....:-) although that doesn't say much about the quality of the
mobo, I guess.

Mark Faine wrote:

> I have  a 700Mhz Athlon and I'm looking for a mobo, I have a price on a
> Microstar for $130.00 and the K7V for $165.00.  I know the k7v is supposed
> to be better but I'd like to get some suggestions and 2nd opinions.  Also
> compatiblitty questions, I'll be running windows 2k and linux mandrake 7.1 ?
>
> -Mark


------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Modem help please!!!
Date: 28 Jun 2000 02:03:29 -0400

Tim Bartek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My modem used to work on LM 6 but now on LM 7 nothing I do seems to work.
> I've tried the setserial command, and also setting the irq to autoconfig but
> can't get anything out of it.  On windows my modem is com3 irq 5.  It is not
> a "winmodem".  Does anyone have any ideas please?


Is it ISA? You used ISAPNP to configure it (so the card is configured to
some IRQ, IO line)? Then run setserial with irq=that_irq and
io=that_io. You can put autoconfigure at the end so it only autoconfigures
the UART. Does that work? What is your first unused ttySx? ttyS1 (if you
have a com port at ttyS0)? Have you use setserial on that
ttySx? (e.g. setserial ttyS1 irq=what_you_set io=What_you_set)?

(There is no need to install and get ttyS17 to work for something on com
 port 18, for example. You can configure the first unused ttySx to use the
 desired settings)

(If the modem is PCI, do you have the settings fixed in the BIOS/Setup
 or wherever .. and  use setserial on your first free ttySx to those
 settings?)

------------------------------

From: Lew Pitcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Network Unreachable
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:20:17 -0400

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry, this must have been asked a million times!
> 
> But anyway, I've put winlinux 2000 on my computer at work, and it's
> great, easy to use, but won't recognise the network!
> 
> i ping other computers on the network and it says unknown host.

Are you pinging by IP address or by FQDN? Try IP addresses, and if
ping works then you know that you have a resolver (DNS) problem. If IP
addresses fail, then the problem is more fundemental

> I check the routing table and about 20 nodes say connected,

Sounds like IP addresses are OK. Suspicion is increasing that your DNS
setup is wrong.

> i use the command ripquery and it says command not found.

This doesn't surprise me. I'm no expert, but I've never heard of
ripquery. It doesn't come with Slackware, and isn't a command
documented in "Unix Network Programming". From the name, I'd suspect
that it queries the Routing Information Protocol (RIP). Since you say
that you've already checked the routing table, perhaps ripquery is
redundant.

> I've looked up a file ifcfg-eth0 like someone suggested, and nothing
> was found.

Must be a WinLinux'ism.

> I did ifconfig and it gave a loada info, including RX packets:14090, TX
> packets 12, txqueulen:100 Interrupt:15, Base address:0x200 MTU:1500,
> Metric:1 with other values at zero.

Yup. You have an interface.

> i looked at the previous replies to network unreacable and tried
> ifconfig up and down, and it did nothing.
> 
> The folder /lib/modules containts only a folder 2.2.13/
> 
> If you have any ideas, please help! i'm very inexperienced with Linux.
> 
> Thanks in advance

Check your DNS.
1) Try to ping by IP. If this works, then your base network is OK.
2) Check out your /etc/resolv.conf file. It should name (with IP
addresses) your DNS servers
3) Check out your /etc/hosts file, It should name (with IP addresses)
the systems you want to talk to before DNS comes up.


-- 
Lew Pitcher

Master Codewright and JOAT-in-training

------------------------------

From: Miroslav =?iso-8859-2?Q?Fl=EDdr?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Promise RAID w/Redhat 6.2
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:22:19 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

robert delano wrote:
> 
> Has any one set up a RAID with the Promise Ultra ATA/66 RAID Card?
> Is it even supported by Linux?

You have to use the kernel patch from
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/hedrick/.

        Bye

                Miroslav Flidr

------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Kew)
Crossposted-To: uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Slim cases for rack-mounted solution
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:47:31 +0000

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Haynes) writes:
 
> Theoretically it should also be cited in the form
> "<URL:http://www.oseu.co.uk/news.htm>", if I read the RFC right.

I nearly said that - but figured there are enough technically literate
people on this group to give it a miss.

>> Also why do people start webservers with http://www , if you are using

Convention.  When I say "http://something/" over the phone, I can be 90%
sure the person on the other end will type "http://www.something/".

> 
><http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Scheme/Implementations/>?

I shall forget that within 1 second of closing this post.

-- 
Nick Kew

Site Valet - the essential service for anyone with a Website.
Now available at <URL:http://valet.webthing.com/>

------------------------------

Subject: Re: problem with disk geomtry reporting
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kenneth Rørvik)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:46:30 GMT

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Eyal Lebedinsky) wrote in 
<newscache$9d5uwf$bh5$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>However, looking at the disks in Linux I see that the two disks
>are recognised correctly, with the correct (identical) geometry,
>but then the effective geometry is different. In other words,
>Linux has access to the drive's reported geomtry but it prefers
>to use the bios bad one.
>
>Can I force Linux to use the one the disk reports?

hdx=noprobe hdx=c,h,s might do the trick. Pass it to the kernel at boot 
time. (linux hda=noprobe hda=1247,63,16 for example). You may also have to 
specify wpcom and IRQ. if you have the kernel source installed, see 
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/ide.txt.

-- 
Kenneth Rørvik          91841353/22718452
Steenstrupsgate 5 B     [EMAIL PROTECTED]
0554 OSLO               home.no.net/stasis

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems
Subject: Re: Hang during boot (need advice)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kenneth Rørvik)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:53:19 GMT

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Goldman) wrote in
<8jbo6f$qg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 

>Please give me 2 minutes of thought and your $.02.  I know the
>information is light, but I'm just asking what to throw away and what to
>keep.  Thanks in advance.
>
>1. Computer was cheap PC clone with Cyrix 266 processor.  Win98, Linux,
>and FreeBSD ran fine (LILO boot loader).
>
>2. It began to crash unexpectedly, run slow, behave badly.  I took it
>back to seller.
>
>3. After investingation, seller says, "You messed up the processor by
>playing with CMOS settings. It's all your fault.  I'll fix for you
>anyway." Note: I had never touched CMOS settings.

My first thought is: Buy your computer elsewhere next time... :)

>4. I got machine back with Celeron 233 processor and new motherboard.
>Seller told me he could not get machine to boot unless he ran the
>processor at 200 MHz, but that's all he'd do for me.

Maybe he set the Front Side Bus to 100MHZ? Perhaps not possible at all on 
an old board, but you never know. He probably doesn't even know what FSB 
is. 

>What's my next move?  I would buy another motherboard and processor
>(cheap) if I thought that would work.  I'd like to have a second
>computer.  Thanks again for your help.

Sounds like some parts of the system have problems talking to each other. 
Maybe defect hardware, but could it be that either the memory or CPU have 
trouble with the bus speed? Try to figure out the settings for the system 
bus, and which motherboard and memory you have, and post some more details 
::)

-- 
Kenneth Rørvik          91841353/22718452
Steenstrupsgate 5 B     [EMAIL PROTECTED]
0554 OSLO               home.no.net/stasis

------------------------------

From: "Douglas W. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.redhat
Subject: Re: Strange Lilo "LI" problems
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:16:47 GMT

I've seen the problem before too, although I won't
pretend to understand the root cause as well as the
others in this group.  In my case, I had installed R.H.
on a drive and subsequently tried to clone another drive
to this one.  My cloning operation was less than successful
at clearing the contents of the MBR.  Try "fdisk /mbr"
using a dos bootable floppy and then giving the drive a
fresh install.
Hope this helps!

Andrew P. Billyard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I had a similar problem once  before and it was because of the LBA in the
> BIOS.  I changed the drive type from LBA to NORMAL in BIOS and everything
> worked fine.  This may not be the answer, but it worked for me.
>
> Neil Koozer wrote:
>
> > "LI" means it's loading things from the wrong physical address on the
> > hard drive.  The bios (at boot time) is doing something different with
> > sector adresses than what Linux does when it's running.  This is
> > referred to as a geometry mismatch.  The 'linear' option is designed to
> > fix this problem, but since you tried that, it must be due to a strange
> > logic design in the bios.
> >
> > How did you set the CHS geometry in the bios?  Did you set the numbers
> > themselves or select some mode that resulted in those numbers?  Did you
> > partition after setting the numbers?
> >
> > If the drive itself has LBA capability you can use the nuni boot loader,
> > which does not use the bios.  It does not use the concept of cylinders
> > or geometry, so the chances are that it would work here.  It can be
> > found at ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/boot/loaders
> >
> > Neil.
>



------------------------------

From: Chris Harshman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Slim cases for rack-mounted solution
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:25:03 -0700

Most of my machines are named Zatharus.  The rest?  Kosh.


David Coulson wrote:

> Robin Smith wrote:
> > Also why do people start webservers with http://www , if you are using
> > http then you could rename the webserver something more interesting
> > such as http://help.xxxxxx
>
> To identify what the machine does?
>
> e.g.
>
> mail server is called 'mail'
> web server is called 'www' (why not http or web?)
> ftp is called 'ftp'
>
> It makes more sense to people who arn't familiar with your network. If you say
> "Copy the configuration file from mail to www" it makes sense to pretty much
> everyone, where as if you name your machines after lovecraft characters, it's a
> little bit confusing.
>
> --
>   *  .  /\  .    .      .
>  .   /\/  \  . *   (  *
>   . /  \   \'\   *  .  *
> ___/    \   \ \'\____________________________________David Coulson______
>  Themes.Org - Lead Developer | ICQ# 16095249 | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


------------------------------

From: "Rask0" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: hp colorado eide travan tape drive
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:17:24 -0700

This  HP 20GB TBU does work under RH6.1. We used modprobe -v ide_tape (I
think that is what we used) and then we could see it with tar using ht0.
Seems to work like a champ.

I'l like to know more about the SCSI emulation. Is it available in RH6.1?
Where can I get more info?



Tim Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It seems to work equally well (RH6.2 base, 2.2.14 kernel) in either native
> ATAPI:
> ...
> hdb: HP COLORADO 20GB, ATAPI TAPE drive
> ide-tape: hdb <-> ht0: HP COLORADO 20GB rev 4.01
> ide-tape: hdb: overriding capabilities->speed (assuming 950KB/sec)
> ide-tape: hdb: overriding capabilities->max_speed (assuming 950KB/sec)
> ide-tape: hdb <-> ht0: 950KBps, 13*32kB buffer, 9248kB pipeline, 60ms
tDSC,
> DMA
> ...
> link /dev/tape -> /dev/nht0
>
> or SCSI emulation mode:
> ...
> hdb: HP COLORADO 20GB, ATAPI TAPE drive
> scsi0 : SCSI host adapter emulation for IDE ATAPI devices
> scsi : 2 hosts.
>   Vendor: HP        Model: COLORADO 20GB     Rev: 4.01
>   Type:   Sequential-Access                  ANSI SCSI revision: 02
> Detected scsi tape st0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
> ...
> link /dev/tape -> /dev/nst0
>
> (substitute hd? and st? as needed).  I was getting infrequent device
> timeouts in both modes, but have not yet tried it for 2.2.16/17pre
kernels.
>
> For tar* to tape:
> /bin/tar c --totals --ignore-failed-read -lp -b 32 -f /dev/tape -g
> <log_file> -V "<label>" <partition>
>
> for dump:
> /sbin/dump -0au -b 16 -d 100400 -f /dev/tape -L "16_char_label"
<partition>
>
> To tell what tape block:
> mt -f /dev/tape tell
>
> To go to a particular block:
> mt -f /dev/tape seek
>
> Misc. notes:
> - Max write throughput with dump, dd or tar is ~930KB/s for a native ext2
> filesystem.
> - Make sure mt is recent (0.5b or later).
>
> * GNUtar extensions allow an effective full + incremental backup ala dump.
> This is an easy and relatively uncomplicated way to backup vfat, nfs or
> native ext2 partitions.
>
>
>
> chad pauli wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > A friend of mine will be buying a tape drive for his Linux box.
> > He is looking at the HP 10/20 Travan technology drive that is eide
> > interface.
> > Is anyone using this under Linux? He is going to be running Red Hat 6.2.
> >
> > How was the install, or anything special needed to get it running?
> > Any suggestion as to what X-windows utility or program to use for backup
> > or command line utility?
> >
> > chad pauli
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> timothymoore
>    bigfoot
>      com



------------------------------

From: "Rask0" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Adaptec 1542 SCSI card and ..
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:31:54 -0700

I have in the past successfully installed and used an Adaptec AHA1542 SCSI
card under RH6.1. I have to confess I did not take notes during that
install.

Anyway, I have recently received back the TBU I am using with said interface
card and need to get the interface working again to test the TBU that was
repaired. I have tried using "modprobe aha1542.o" but it just sits there for
a long time - then beeps and returns to a prompt. I am reasonably sure I did
it this way before, but I have no notes and bad memory.

I am also using a diff MB this time and other diff hardware - basically a
diff machine for all intents and purposes. I had to change the IRQ on the
SCSI card from 15 since the new MB actually has a second IDE channel on it.
What I do not know is if there are any conflicts. How does one go about
checking for conflicts in IRQ or I/O under Linux?

My guess is something is conflicting, but I can't get any info and musical
jumpers seems to be so Neanderthal.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] [remove nospam. for email]



------------------------------

From: "Rask0" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: test
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:48:08 -0700

test



------------------------------

From: "Douglas W. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.redhat,comp.periphs.scsi
Subject: Re: U160SCSI in redhat???
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:37:35 GMT

Thanks for the help!

Since  I posted the original message, a couple
of new issues have come to light.  I updated
the Kernel from the retail 2.2.14 to 2.2.16
(or something like this). This update enables
U160 functionality in the 18GB drives, but the
same procedure doesn't cut it with the 36GB
drives.  :(  I am developing this unreasoning
fear of an undocumented hardware conflict/
incompatibility.

The only hope I have left for the 36GB system is
that maybe my accidental use of the UW
connector (while installing & upgrading R.H.
on the 18GB systems) may have saved my butt in
that install.  If this turns out to be the case, then
perhaps repeating my *error* on the 36GB
system may be the workaround I seem to need.

If  anyone else knows anything about using a
Quantum Atlas 10K 36GB SCSI drive with
the adaptec chipset on the Supermicro PIIIDM3
board, please let me know.  The techs at
Supermicro and Quantum have fingers pointed
at each other, and so far the techs at SUSE (which
does the same thing) and Redhat have been the most
helpful in suggesting that I update the Kernel.  As I
have found, though, this appears to solve only half of
my problem.

Keith Fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I have seen the same "problem" though, because the drives only do
> 25-40Mb/sec sustained, having a bus that transfers at 2x that is still
> acceptable.  You might want to see if Red Hat recently upgraded (or
> downgraded) the AIC7xxx driver in the most recent patch.
>
>
> >
> > I hope some kind person out there can pinpoint
> > a few likely causes for this problem. I am
> > using Quantum Atlas 10K drives, which should
> > be 160MB/sec capable (one system has two 18GB
> > drives, and one uses two 36GB). The bios for
> > my Supermicro PIIIDM3 mainboard recognizes
> > the drives and the board's U160 Adaptec
> > controller chipset.
> >
> > The problem is that when I use my kickstart file
> >  to load Redhat 6.2,I end up with a system that
> > only gets a data transfer rate of 80MB/sec.
> >
> > I have seen these drives operating at 160 on other
> > systems, but I am not sure how that Redhat
> > installation was done. I believe that my kickstart
> > file is not installing the correct drivers for the
> > chipset, But when I installed Suse 6.4 and Redhat
> > 6.2 (manually), I got the same result: 80MB/sec.
> > Perhaps the U160 is not being autodetected and the
> > U2 SCSI is autoloaded. Do you suspect the driver,
> > a hardware conflict, or should I be looking at
> > something else entirely?
> >
> > Please send any replies to me, as well as the
> > newsgroup - I am not sure I can find a specific
> > thread in such a busy group. Thanks for whatever
> > help you can provide!



------------------------------

From: "Ross Goodley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Linux, Quake2 and a PS/2 Mouse
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:49:28 +0100

Thanx, that's sorted it ;-)
"David Efflandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:43:04 +0100, Ross Goodley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >I have a similar prob with Q2 and mice with my 3DFx Card, run with
svgalib,
> >or under X... mouse works fine. Run with mesa or glide... no mouse.. zip
> >nada.... any ideas anyone?
>
> Did you try 'killall gpm' first?  I haven't run q2 since RH 5.2 (that
> drive is not in my computer at the moment), but a PS2 mouse worked fine
> with a 3dfx Monster 3D.  I used my Glidepad for aiming.
>
> --
> David Efflandt  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.de-srv.com/
> http://www.autox.chicago.il.us/  http://www.berniesfloral.net/
> http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cgi-wiz/  http://cgi-help.virtualave.net/
>



------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.redhat
Subject: Re: Strange Lilo "LI" problems
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:41:46 GMT

Hi,

I had the same problem...
On a PC with Win and Linux. I installed LILO in the MBR and Norton
antivirus corrupted it ! Same problem, same solution...

fdisk /mbr

Reinstall Linux (update) just to reinstall LILO. It's fast.

Bye

Fabrice

In article <zDh65.8095$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
  "Douglas W. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've seen the problem before too, although I won't
> pretend to understand the root cause as well as the
> others in this group.  In my case, I had installed R.H.
> on a drive and subsequently tried to clone another drive
> to this one.  My cloning operation was less than successful
> at clearing the contents of the MBR.  Try "fdisk /mbr"
> using a dos bootable floppy and then giving the drive a
> fresh install.
> Hope this helps!
>
> Andrew P. Billyard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I had a similar problem once  before and it was because of the LBA
in the
> > BIOS.  I changed the drive type from LBA to NORMAL in BIOS and
everything
> > worked fine.  This may not be the answer, but it worked for me.
> >
> > Neil Koozer wrote:
> >
> > > "LI" means it's loading things from the wrong physical address on
the
> > > hard drive.  The bios (at boot time) is doing something different
with
> > > sector adresses than what Linux does when it's running.  This is
> > > referred to as a geometry mismatch.  The 'linear' option is
designed to
> > > fix this problem, but since you tried that, it must be due to a
strange
> > > logic design in the bios.
> > >
> > > How did you set the CHS geometry in the bios?  Did you set the
numbers
> > > themselves or select some mode that resulted in those numbers?
Did you
> > > partition after setting the numbers?
> > >
> > > If the drive itself has LBA capability you can use the nuni boot
loader,
> > > which does not use the bios.  It does not use the concept of
cylinders
> > > or geometry, so the chances are that it would work here.  It can
be
> > > found at ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/boot/loaders
> > >
> > > Neil.
> >
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

------------------------------


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