Linux-Misc Digest #321, Volume #25 Wed, 2 Aug 00 18:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: MP3's skip : How I solved it (Gordon Gilbert)
Re: where has the propaganda website gone? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Oh no! (blowfish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gordon Gilbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: MP3's skip : How I solved it
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:44:52 -0400
Stewart Honsberger wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:37:49 -0400, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
> >> Most drives work well with these features,
> >> but a few drive/controller combinations are not 100% com-
> >> patible. Filesystem corruption may result. Backup every-
> >> thing before experimenting!
> >
> >I guarantee it has nothing to do with the drive and controller (i.e.
> >Ultra 33 and Ultra 66 work fine in Windows). It has everything to do
> >with Linux being an average of 2-3 years behind Windows in terms of
> >hardware support.
>
> Attack #1.
The fact that you can't even talk without talking DOWN to someone
demonstrates you're complete and total inability to deal with the
real world. Apparently, you can't deal with the SLIGHTEST bit of
criticism without going berserk.
> >It simply doesn't support DMA or UDMA transfers
> >using a Promise Ultra 66 controller (apparently).
>
> Interesting how you could come to such a conclusion after such a singular,
> uneducated, unresearched test.
Unresearched? It's funny how one apparently must do "research"
before they can enable DMA on their hard drive. LOL. And what did
you do before you enabled DMA on your hard drive? Read some of
those giant Linux manuals they sell at the book store. Linux For
Dummies perhaps?
> >Mandrake 7.1 added support for the Promise Ultra 66 controller, but
> >I guess it was only PIO support, which defeats the entire purpose of
> >having an Ultra66 controller. Of course that'll change, eventually.
> >But for now, I'm stuck with 3MB/sec when I Should be getting more
> >like 20. Heck, my new Maxtor drive (that Win98 is using) is rated
> >at 43MB/sec! How fast does Linux access it? You guessed it.
> >3MB/sec!
>
> That's too bad. It's also too bad that you don't realize that, for one
> thing, the kernel has some to do with DMA support. Of course you knew
> that - right? Otherwise you wouldn't be making juvenile attacks at those
> who are offering the only advice that could be offered, as well as
> attacking Linux.
You, sir, are the only one behaving like a juvenile here.
> BTW - I get 46MB/sec and 49MB/sec out of my two Ultra ATA 33 drives.
You, sir, are a liar. No Ultra33 drive is capable of 46MB/sec
sustained transfers unless it's cached information. But, you
already knew that, right? You probably did the hdparm -T operation
and thought, "Gee, I get 46MB/sec!" Wow, I get 95MB/sec then!
> That couldn't be because I have DMA support properly compiled into
> my kernel - could it?
I'm afraid not since it's already there, bub.
> >I see a lot of "you should have backed up" responses, but nothing
> >helpful in fixing my problem. Yes, you can rub that salt in all you
> >want, but it accomplishes nothing for the problem at hand.
>
> No, it accomplishes the task of teaching you to backup before fiddling
> with your hardware settings.
Actually, it taught me that some people on the Internet are touched.
> Are we speaking Swahilli here?
If all you had to say was, "Maybe you should have backed up your
system first." You could have said that in one sentence and without
all the theatrics.
> >Yes, and the lesson learned is that Linux sucks when it comes to
> >modern HD support.
>
> Attack #2.
Strange Response #2.
> >You either put up with the lousy 3MB/sec
> >transfers or you try to improve them by changing a parameter in
> >hdparm. There is no other choice.
>
> Unfounded statement.
Not really. If you're getting 3MB/sec when you should be getting
19MB/sec and want to get 19MB/sec, you do have to make a change or
you'll continue to get 3MB/sec. But that's a logical conclusion and
I assumed you had some fundamentally basic skills in that area. My
mistake; it won't happen again.
> My 6G Ultra ATA 33 drive is quite less than 3 years old, thank you. You
> might also be interested to know that Linux beat Microsoft in supporting
> Ultra ATA 100 drives. But, of course, your mind appears set. You don't
> want to listen to reason. Rather than take it as a lesson learned, you've
> decided to trash Linux.
Trash Linux? You are dreaming. If I wanted "trash" Linux, you'd
know it.
There is a difference between supporting Ultra xx drives and
supporting my particular controller. Support for it at all is
fairly new.
> Perhaps you should give up on Linux. It sounds to me as if you don't want
You'd like that wouldn't you? Sorry to disappoint you, but KDM
failing is hardly a reason for me to leave. In fact, I quite like
some aspects of Linux. Other aspects aren't quite there yet, IMO,
like a large selection of software for one thing.
> control over your computer, but are happy with the reverse.
Actually, that's not me at all. I came from the Amiga. I prefer
control. That doesn't mean I have to live in "Shell Land" and do
everything the "Shell Way" to prove I'm a man. Get over it,
already. Knowing how to use a computer doesn't mean you can't
appreciate a GUI. I can type close to 80 words a minute. I'd
rather spend my time communicating (although not with dorks like
yourself) than typing long shell commands all day long. Sure, I can
type
mv /mnt/win_d/linuxdl/utils/wmappl*.gz ~/temp
mv /mnt/win_d/linuxdl/games/xsolit*.gz /tmp/compile
"" etc.......
Now, why would I want to do that when I can use gentoo and copy
whatever I need almost instantly by just hilighting it and moving
it? There are times when the shell is better and times when a
graphical app is better. I used to use a similar disk manager on
the Amiga and it's a lot easier to add your most common shell
commands (tar -xvzf for instance) to gentoo than typing it every
time. But, hey, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.
> >> For the record, BTW, Linux systems aren't the only ones that can fail
> >> to activate DMA on 'capable' equipment and bomb miserably when it's forced.
> >
> >The difference is that Windows enables it when it's supported. This
> >is because the manufacturer includes drivers for Windows.
>
> Or, could it be the fact that the Windows kernel is a one-size-fits-all
> solution, with no specific optimizations for the hardware the OS sits on?
> Could it have anything to do with the fact that your Linux kernel just
> might not have support enabled for your specific IDE controller in order
> to enable DMA?
Nope. That's not it. Try again. The Promise driver is already in
there.
> Have you thought of posting your boot messages (man dmesg) to demonstrate
> what was displayed on boot-up? Have you considered asking if your specific
I could do that, but no one asked to see it. In fact, most of the
responses I received were, "Restore from backup, Will Robinson!
Danger Danger!" Oh, I didn't realize that sentence was Linux-speak
for "Please post your boot log."
> IDE controller is supported, and where to look to go about getting it
> supported? Did you think to ask what would happen if you enabled DMA on
> your system without knowing how to go about it? Did you have anything
> running at the time?
Just the usual stuff. Yes, I read all about support for the Promise
Controller. I did this when I found that Mandrake 6.5's install
wouldn't work (even though its kernel supported it, the installer
did not).
> No. You saw somebody who posted their fix to the group and decided that it
> was a fix that would work for you, too. Sorry to tell you - but it didn't.
Wow. I never would have guessed Einstein!
> You broke your OS, and now it's time to learn from that experience and move
> on.
I broke my OS again? Darn! I hate it when that happens. Usually I
care for my OS so well. I bathe it regularly and feed it a steady
diet. I wonder where I went wrong....
> >Linux doesn't enable it half the time when it IS supported. So, you can't
> >trust it. You end up trying hdparm anyways.
>
> Back that up with some facts, please. You sound like an idiot right now.
Well, let's see. Duhh......uhgg.......arrrghh. I'm and idiot,
right? I should start sounding like one.....ughgh..aarrr...ummm.
Geeze, if you could only hear how your response to me sounds.
The fact that turning on DMA did work for someone shows that Linux
didn't enable it when they first installed their system, even though
it was supported. In fact, Mandrake didn't properly install a lot
of things on my system. Glide didn't work. OpenGL wasn't compiled
with Glide support out of the box, etc. I had to do an awful lot of
work to get things to work in Linux that would work virtually right
out of the box in Win98. Now, maybe you call that "power" in
Linux. I call it a waste of time. If you like to tinker just to
get basic drivers to work, great.
> Cool off for a while. Your postings look an awful lot like reactionary,
You're the one that needs to cool off. You're the one that's
calling ME the idiot. I already have my system back up and running.
I don't need your help anymore. Oh, that's right. You never gave
me any help. Duh.
> rather than thought out discourse. It's never good to respond in anger,
> especially when discussing a subject you're clearly not an expert in.
You should listen to your own advice.
> >The man pages for hdparm are hopelessly outdated (there's no *current*
> >list of supported hard drive controllers in the man pages).
>
> Oh? Are you offering to keep it current? Do you understand that Open Source
If I wrote a piece of software, I would darn well keep the
documentation that comes with it up to date. Half the problem with
the software development community is that they don't like to write
anything but code. I had a minor in English. I like to write. I
like to see things well documentated. I like to see things written
so that even a beginner can understand what's being said if that
same person is expected to use the software in question. We all
have to start somewhere. But when someone like you comes along that
thinks he knows everything in Linux and then proceeds to try to put
a relative newcomer down and scare him away, well, you're only
hurting your own system. You may say you don't want Linux to be
mainstream, but I've got news for you. I am NOT a mainstream user.
I've been using computers since the Vic-20 came out. I bought Linux
because I like to play with Operating Systems and because I thought
it was a useful thing to know. I like some aspects much better than
Windows, the Mac and even the Commodore Amiga. But I'm not naive
enough to think that Linux is going to be able to both garner tons
of the latest applications *and* remain a clique for the nerdy
"elite."
> Software authors often have things like careers and other projects on the
> go that would prevent them from doing such Earth-shatteringly important
> things as updating a man page with a list of tested hardware? No. You want
Gee, um, it's like important man! It prevents people from bothering
to try and thus corrupting their systems needlessly (even if they
have a backup, it's a waste of time) if it says right in the manual
that that controller isn't supported yet.
> what's best for you and screw the world. That's the wrong attitude to have,
> my friend.
Think about what you just said and now apply it to the programmer.
I think you'll see it works both ways, "my friend."
> >The funny thing is that Promise did write a driver for Linux. I
> >guess it didn't include DMA support either.
>
> Are you USING Promise's driver for Linux, or did you just hear about it
> and assume it was implemented?
Why would I use their driver when they personally wrote me and told
me that their driver is only for Red Hat 6.0 and that they were
working hard to get a beta 6.1 driver out. They said they don't
support Mandrake. Clearly, their public relations man isn't up on
the fact that Mandrake is Red Hat compatible or that it's already
supported natively in the newer kernels. Apparently, you're not up
on it either. Ironic, since I'm the idiot and you're the
know-it-all.
> >> I've done it to my share of Windoze systems in past, and they sure didn't
> >> like the results to the point where a format was in order.
> >
> >Oh, well you clearly didn't understand what you were doing, then, I
> >guess. :P
>
> What's to understand? The help pages indicate that if you want to enable
> DMA, you enable it. If it doesn't work, disable it.
>
> Windows is re-installed on a very regular basis anyways, so it wasn't very
> painful for me to do.
It is? I've been using it for years and I've had to restore ONCE
from backup in that time. If you're re-installing all the time then
you're doing something wrong. The only person I know that is
reinstalling all the time uses AOL. That's all that needs to be
said. But I find it funny that you berrate me about Linux and then
act like it's normal to re-install Windows all the time. Oh, it's
sooo Windows! You just reinstall all the time! Fun Fun Fun!
Right. If I had to reinstall Windows all the time, I wouldn't even
use it.
I've personally found X-Windows far less stable than the console
apps. I found this out very quickly when X-windows froze with any
number of unstable apps. Upgrading usually solved the problem,
although I still had to reboot when a misbehaving 3D app would
corrupt the framebuffer in the Voodoo3 card, thus leaving the
display unreadable (blocky mess is more like it).
> >I already said I had previously backed up all my downloads and my
> >home directory. There are configuration files scattered about the
> >system though (i.e. to get Glide to work, to get other apps global
> >configs to work, to set up global configs for window managers, etc.
> >etc.)
>
> Perhaps if you don't back them up, you'll learn another valuable lesson;
Ah, so now I shouldn't back things up? Get your story straight.
> being able to configure things repeatedly. You may even find that you do
I've already gotten plenty of practice doing that. One finds the
need to do that every time something doesn't work right that should
(e.g. my original Kensington scroll mouse didn't scroll. Well, I
tried everything under the sun to get it to work only to find out
eventually on a message board from someone else that it wasn't
supported.) I don't mind learning things like that, though. I need
to become familiar with most aspects of the operating system
eventually anyways. However, if I had someone like you calling me
an idiot every other minute, it would get old really fast.
> >I wouldn't put static data on CDRs for the reason that most linux
> >software isn't really static. Some software gets updated as often
> >as once a day. That would waste CDrs.
>
> 650 megs for ~$1.80, and you're worried about wasted CDR's? Man, you
> really must be short on cash.
Actually, I paid about $0.75 a piece for my CDRs. However, why
waste several of those at $.75 a piece when I can use one CDRW at
$1.80 a piece and never have to use more than one disc for the same
apps? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that by the time I get
to the 3rd throw-away CDR, I'm already losing money. When CDRW
discs cost 10x that of a CDR you might have had a point.
> >And before I can put backups
> >on my CDRW drive, I have to get my CDRW drive working properly under
> >Linux. I guess I'll have to play with CDRecord because the
> >frontends for it suck.
>
> All of them suck? There isn't a single frontend out there worth your
> precious time, or is it the fact that they don't resemble the Windows
I haven't found one yet that I've liked. I'll keep looking,
though.
> counter-parts enough, or that you have to perform manual input in order
> to make them function?
>
> > But that's the problem with Linux.
>
> Attack #3. Attacking the OS for software written for it. Tsk.
Operating System, available software...it's all part of the Linux
experience. If Linux had all the software Windows had, we wouldn't
be having this conversation. And why are you numbering so-called
"attacks?" Do you worship Linux or something? Everything on this
planet has its good points and bad points.
> >You end
> >up doing most things in the shell because there are no better/easier
> >tools to do it with. Sure people can tout how POWERFUL the shell
> >is. That may be true, but most of the time that's just offered to
> >cover up the fact that most Linux software isn't user friendly.
>
> Isn't idiot friendly, my friend. All the software I need is covered for
There you go again. When you mature enough to realize that using a
GUI isn't a sin, maybe you'll realize who the real idiot is. And if
you think that Linux is going to get a lot of support and software
without attracting more users, you're wrong.
> both GUI and CLI. I'm not sure what your problem is. Perhaps you're
> either too fussy, or you can't live without the Windows API.
I'm sure that you can't understand what my problem is. I bet you
don't even boot into X-Windows, which is why you have no idea how to
fix KDM. There was a time when I only used the shell on the
Commodore Amiga. I wouldn't touch Workbench (its GUI) for anything
since I thought of myself as a "power user." I grew up. You should
too.
> >Where I can just copy files over to the CD-RW drive using explorer
> >in Win98, I have to use CDRecord from the command line in Linux.
>
> Have you researched this? I know I've seen mumblings about mounting a
Yes, I've researched it. UDF write support is flaky at best right
now.
> CDR(w) disk as a volume and copying files to it like normal. Of course
> not. You prefer the attack first, look like a heel later approach to
> solving problems.
No, you just like to point fingers.
> >area. Even if I liked doing it that way, I guarantee most of the
> >general public won't. And if you ever want mainstream software
> >support for Linux, driver support, etc., then Linux has to be
> >acceptable to the mainstream, like it or not.
>
> To tell you the truth, I really couldn't care less. Mainstream support
> tends to draw users like you towards Linux, and that's not my vision of
> Linux's future.
I'm glad I don't share your vision of Linux's future since your
vision was Linux 3 years ago.
>
> >> Or, you could use an automated script to put everything into a tarball
> >> in the middle of the night and back it up once a week.
> >
> >I don't leave my system running 24/7. Cron isn't much use when you
> >aren't running Linux at regular intervals.
>
> Have you read the documentation for cron? It's not limited to the wee
> hours of the night when you're curled up with your teddy bear.
Personal attack #25! Actually, I don't run Linux at any particular
interval set. I use it when I want to use it. I'm not using it
right now. So what?
> >If Linux is ever to be a successful home operating system,
>
> There you go again; making your own projections as to what Linux has to
> do to become "sucessful". Believe it or not, Linux wasn't designed to be
No, I'm quite correct in my assessment.
> a LUSER platform. If you want that, you've already got plenty of products
More personal insults. They say that someone that has to result to
personal insults to make their point either doesn't have a good
argument or is incapable of a providing a good argument. Which
scenerio fits you?
> from that company in Redmond you could pay out the ear for. They sound
> more up your alley.
No, they don't. But then you like to make assumptions about
people.
> You're trying to make Linux into Windows, and that's just not going to
> happen.
Believe it or not, there are some good qualities to Windows. And
like it or not, Linux is heading in the direction of the good
qualities (and unfortunately, hitting some of the bad ones along the
way). But if you expect Linux to sit still and stay a hacker-only
friendly system, you've got another thing coming. Fortunately, not
everyone in the Linux community is as blind as you are. These are
the people coding applications for KDE, Gnome and other window
managers. They are ensuring that Linux has a future and a
mainstream one at that, instead of remaining the little hacker
fantasy OS you want it to be.
> >Automated scripts are also one of those user unfriendly processes.
>
> Why, because you have to type, rather than point and grunt, er, click?
I like to type. Not everyone does. I'm not limited to representing
only MY point of view. I like to type for some things and point and
click for others.
> >> It took me all of 20 lines, comments included, to have my /home directory
> >> backed up and a reminder mailed to me each week. Every time you find
> >> something else you need/want backed up, add a line or two.
> >
> >A graphical frontend could make this much simpler.
>
> Good for it! Write one!
Good for it? What language is that?
> Oh, wait, a graphical front end that can't make use of the literally
> millions of possible functions of the Bash scripting language without
> becomming a several megabyte monster of an application. A graphical
> front end that would have to be updated every time the Bash scripting
> language were ever to be changed/improved.
Oh the crime of it all! Golly gee. You mean programs have to be
kept current! No!!!!!
> I'm sorry that Bash isn't idiot friendly. Truly, I am.
I'm sorry you have to result to personal insults all the time.
Truly, I am.
> Aww! Does that mean that Linux WON'T get more idiot users? {sob} Damn..
Listen to yourself. I think it has plenty already.
> >Is that because you don't have a clue how to fix it? Just say so.
>
> Alright, I have no idea how to fix a system which has been bunged by a
> gung-ho user who's changed hardware parameters in order to follheartedly
> make it 'wurk bettr'. But then again, that's part of what I do for a
I don't speak that way. I never have and I never will except as a
joke. Really, I don't know who you think you are talking to here,
but you are clearly quite clueless. And I do believe you when you
say that you have no idea how to fix a system, even if you were
joking. Your answer is to restore from backup. Wow. That takes
talant and know-how. What do you do when there is no backup? Hand
the system off to the guy that knows what he's doing? I got my
system working again without reinstalling and without help.
> living. I fix systems for people who think they're gurus. Y'know how I
> fix 'em half the time? I backup whatever I can find that's valuable and
> I re-install whatever smoking hulk of an OS remains. Often with pleas
Of course that's how you do it. You don't know enough about Linux
to actually troubleshoot. I troubleshoot hardware for a living.
It's something they teach in Electronic Engineering. We can't
restore from backup if we fry something.
> of "Don't tinker with it if you don't understand it" relayed to the
> customer afterwards.
There are two ways to learn things. One is to read. The other is
to do. The latter is inherently more dangerous, but some things are
only properly learned that way. Some things work on paper, but
don't work when you actually make the product.
> >Stop telling me what I should have done. I can't timetravel back and
> >tell myself, "Hey that's going to corrupt KDM. Don't do it!"
>
> I could also time travel back to the first time I ever stuck my tongue
> in a light socket. But then I would never have learned that tounge +
> light socket = ouch!
I never learned that lesson. I never felt the need to. In fact, I
try to avoid being shocked when working on electronic equipment as
much as possible. It's not something I care to experience.
> >> Stop thinking of Linux as a toy might be a good start.
> >
> >Give me a break. I said I was using Linux as a learning tool to
> >learn Linux. Is that making it a TOY? (shrug) I'm done wasting my
> >time here.
>
> We'll miss you!
Did I say I was leaving? I meant I was done wasting my time with
that message. I should have quit writing this one before I even
started. You're probably just a troll with nothing better to do
than call people idiots.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: where has the propaganda website gone?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:42:42 GMT
thanks for the info :) I can update my bookmarks now.
Joe
www.strudwick.net
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Lew Pitcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Lonni J. Friedman" wrote:
> >
> > It was shutdown about 6 months ago. Much of its content has been
merged
> > into themes.org
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone know where the propaganda website went to? I think it was a
> > > linux site or unix, can't quite remember but they had some kewl
> > > backgrouds and stuff to download.
> > > they used to be at
> > > http://propaganda.system12.com/welcome.html
> > >
>
> Bowie Poag is sourcing his graphics from the metalab.unc.edu site now;
> Propaganda has gone underground. Try
> http://metalab.unc.edu/propaganda/ for the main site, and
> http://metalab.unc.edu/propaganda/Vol1/catalog.html for the Propaganda
> volume listings.
>
> --
> Lew Pitcher
>
> Master Codewright and JOAT-in-training
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ..
Subject: Re: Oh no!
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:56:36 -0700
Andrew Purugganan wrote:
>
> Johnny Kitchens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> [ My sentiments......exactly
> [ "blowfish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> [ news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [ > And Red Hat is famous for buggie, crappy, unfinished products. And try
> [ > to hide behind the disguise of being on the "bleeding edge" when it
> [ > broke.
> [ >
> [ > If you choose Red Hat, you might as well stay with Windoz. Even Win 9.x
> [ > is better than Red Hat, according to bugtraq.
>
> WOuld the continued use if Mandrake or RH be harmful to the casual Linux
> user though? Would this 'dll-hell' sort of problem affect only program
> or software developers? I've managed to d/load & install RPMs from
> rufus.w3.org, though I have to admit it's mostly binaries
> All my attempts to compile always say
> 'c compiler can't create executables'
> and that's only during the ./configure portion! Am I a hapless victim
> already?
PS:-
And if you still miss any dependency file after you've installed the
development packages from your distro. Just READ the error message from
the compile process, and get those and install them, and try again.
Learn how to edit at least the path, directory and how to symbolic them.
Then, you won't have compatibility problem from version 0.00001beta all
the way to version 3,00,000. ;-)
> --
> jazz
> Registered linux user no. 164098 +--+--+--+ Litestep user no. 386
> Doesn't it bother you, that we have to search for intelligent life
> --- OUT THERE??
--
- Alex / blowfish.
--
- If Vi is God's editor. Then, God must have too much free time on his
hands,
lives a very dull and unproductive life; so he needs Vi to waste his
time.
But Vi was still too fast. So God created EMACS on the 8th day - which
takes
Eight Months to load, And Counting Still...
KISS rules. That's why I use Easy Edit (ee). Small. Simple and fast.
:-)
- The UN-GEEK CODE:(?What is a
geek?)-#!?+++??++++|$????+++++?????+++!!!!???+++---
geek + vi | ~/emacs
==>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!.......:P~
newbies + Windoz | C:\LOOKOUT
EXPRESS==>_the_horrors_the_horrrrrrrroOOOOORRRRRRRRRSSSSsssss!!! :-|
- My SAS (Sing-A-Song)Fingerprint -v.i007bond: Doe1(-a deer a female
deer.) RaY2(- a drop of golden sun.)
Me3(- A name, I call myself.) FAr4(- A long, long way to run.) Sew5(-A
needle pulling thread.)
lA6(-A note to follow sew.) TeA7(-A drink with jam and bread.) That
will bring us back to DOe-oh-oh-oh...
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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