Good morning, some weeks ago on our traditional lute party in berlin i tried a gut-stringed lute. It was terrible, completely out of tune after contact with my finger tips (less than 10 sec). I tend to wet fingertips especially when I am stressed out. So I stay with my synthetics (mixture of nyl, carbon and copper wounded strings). My 7-c- lute is very stable in tune. My luthier (renatus lechner) told me that he works in his workshop with an air dehumidifier (30 - 40 % humiditiy). Greetings w.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. April 2005 19:25 An: Michael Thames; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; timothy motz Betreff: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. Michael, I think humidity has a great deal to do with all the problems with gut. I live in northern Minnesota, and gut is a problem in the summer, due to high humidity. So, I keep 1 instrument in synthetic strings for the summer months. Michael, I am sorry that you had such a miserable experience with gut. I used to find it wildly un tunable & unstable, but for the past 9 years in gut, I have only had 2 bad tuning experiences. Unfortunately, one was last summer in Clevaland, at the LSA seminar, where Phil Rukavina & I performed the Valderrabano duets in gut. We acclimated the instrument & strings to air conditioning, but the AC was turned off due to noise, & tuning problems started from as the temp & humidity rose. The other problem was in Maui (yes, what a great gig! I was flown to Maui for 2 concerts in the winter).......... I left Minnesota in winter, & arrived in summer tropical climate. The baroque lute in gut took 4 days to even get it up to pitch! But, my vihuela, then in synthetics, had problems adjusting as well. Another point you brought up was the fingers ...... some people must have oils or other substances on their fingers, & they seem to be unable to handle gut, as it frays quickly, etc. I used to have this problem, but I find it manageable because I make certain I always wash my hands before picking up the instrument. Clean fingers make a difference. Also, I take care of my fingertips, making certain they are soft & smooth. Rough finger tips tear into gut badly. Being a builder, are your hands rough? On other occasions, I have traveled & toured using gut, & it has been every bit as stable as synthetics, but I arrived at least a couple of days before the gig. But, if one flies to a concert & performs that day, the climate change can make tuning a bit wacky. So, for a same-day concert, I would go with synthetics. Gut is not for everyone. It is a commitment in fantastic sound, with less compromise. lately, I am tempted to go back to synthetics, as it is much less fuss. ed At 10:44 AM 4/13/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: > >If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. >Could the dry air > >there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning >in general > >and gut in particular > > Timothy, excellent point! After reading Kenneth's account of his >concert at 37,000 feet, and the confession that he couldn't keep the lute in >tune, finally makes sense. > My house sits at 7100 feet, and it's very dry here. The gut strings are >probably dry as a bone to begin with, and as I've said the problem with" in >tuneness" only happens as I begin to play, and introduce moisture from my >fingers, on to the strings. This could also happen to a lesser degree with >wound basses, and nylgut. > My apologies to all. However here in Taos, what you all were saying >seemed impossible. >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >----- Original Message ----- >From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:09 AM >Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. > > > > >If I remember right, Michael live in New Mexico. Could the dry air > > there be the reason why he has such problems with tuning in general > > and gut in particular? > > > > I'm an absolute newbie both as a player and a builder, but I have > > very few problems with gut on my lute. Unless I'm playing it, most > > of the time it sits in its case. And, as Kenneth Be has reminded me, > > museums are the perfect environments for lutes. Kenneth and I both > > work in museums, and I keep my lute in the office during the week so > > I can practice during my lunch break. > > > > But even at home my lute is pretty stable. It's only when I put it > > in the car and take it to my lessons that it shifts much. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > >---- Original Message ---- > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. > > >Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:26:46 -0600 > > > > > >> I have silver wound basses, and trebles and octaves are all > > >nylgut with > > >>one carbon first string. My lute usually hangs on the wall where I > > >play > > >>everyday, and would say it stays in tune remarkably well. But, I > > >always need > > >>to fine tune it the next day, or an hour into my practice session. > > >> Also I replace the first 2 single strings, after 2 or 3 months > > >because of > > >>indentations causing indentation problems > > >> The gut experience was horrific, I couldn't make it through one > > >piece > > >>without having to stop and tune, This lasted for two months. > > >Initially, the > > >>lute would go in tune and stay there fine, until I would begin to > > >play, then > > >>moisture from my fingers seemed to cause it to constantly go out. > > >I've > > >>always heard of great success stories with gut but, after talking to > > >Paul > > >>Odette, he said guts impossible to use in concert settings with > > >forced air > > >>heating and air conditioning. He uses nylgut. > > >> I saw Paul Odette take his lute out of the case in the master > > >class and > > >>immediately start tuning it up, and this was after he played a > > >concert the > > >>night before in Santa Fe. > > >> Same with Ronn McFarlane, he was tuning on stage. > > >>Michael Thames > > >>www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > >>----- Original Message ----- > > >>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > >>Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:12 AM > > >>Subject: Antwort: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Hi Ed, > > >>> > > >>> it wasn't me stating something about people being > > >"pitch-challenged". > > >>> Actually I have had the same experience as you. After being > > >stretched > > >>> completely the nylguts I'm using on most of my lutes remain fairly > > >good in > > >>> tune and I often do not need to tune for several days. by the way: > > >the > > >>> remaining gut strings on my 10-course (which I just changed > > >recently) > > >>> stayed well in tune, too. > > >>> > > >>> I don't like carbon strings because of their brightness - it's > > >just too > > >>> much and found that nylgut is a perfect compromise between the > > >sound of > > >>gut > > >>> and the practical advantages of a syntethic material. And after > > >being used > > >>> this synthetics I feel uncomfortable playing gut (just a bit as if > > >the > > >>> finger would be glued to the string). Kenneth told me he would > > >feel just > > >>> the other way round as he played on my 11-course (he have had gut > > >on his > > >>> renaissance lute which traveled with him to germany last year). > > >>> > > >>> Best wishes > > >>> Thomas > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 13.04.2005 00:09:59 > > >>> > > >>> An: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Donatella Galletti > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > >>> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >>> Kopie: > > >>> > > >>> Thema: Re: lute outreach -tuning.. > > >>> > > >>> In this discussion, I have found similar instances when string > > >stability > > >>> has been wonderful. Sometimes, I leave an instrument in the case > > >(all gut > > >>> strung baroque lute), and after no attention for a few months, I > > >open the > > >>> lid & to my astonishment, it is in remarkably good tune. This is > > >the > > >>> exception to the rule, but gut has a bad reputation. The newer > > >strings > > >>are > > >>> > > >>> more stable, in my opinion. Either that, or we are learning how > > >ti use it > > >>> better than before. > > >>> > > >>> In terms of string stability, carbon takes the prize for being the > > >most > > >>> stable string ever produced. It seems as though it is absolutely > > >>> impervious to temperature & humidity. I stopped using carbon > > >about 12 > > >>> years ago, but prior to that, the saying was that a lutenist could > > >apply > > >>> crazy glue to the pegs, because those strings are so stable that > > >they > > >>> almost require no tuning after being totally stretched out. They > > >were > > >>also > > >>> > > >>> durable, as I had a set on for around 9 years, without changing > > >strings > > >>> [even the trebles!], & they retained the same sound & trueness. > > >So, if > > >>you > > >>> > > >>> want practicality (tuning stability, longevity of string life) go > > >with > > >>> carbon. But, as Roman suggested, it is a rather "cold" sounding > > >>> string. It is loud and clear, as the high density increases its > > >>> efficiency. > > >>> > > >>> Thomas has stated we are pitch challenged of lying about this, > > >that it is > > >>> impossible for an instrument to stay in tune after travel. I > > >believe > > >>Roman > > >>> > > >>> and Kenneth, as we have all had similarly good tuning experiences. > > >>> > > >>> ed > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> At 01:00 PM 4/12/2005 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >>> >Donatella et Roman, > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > I the use same mixture of Nylgut and Pyramid > > >>> >strings on my ten course and find that it stays in > > >>> >tune remarkably well, although I'm not that crazy > > >>> >about the sound of the pyramid basses on this > > >>> >instrument. > > >>> > > > >>> >Roman - have you found this tuning stability to be > > >>> >typical with carbon? I'm thinking of stringing my > > >>> >theorbo at least partially with it. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> >Chris > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> >--- Donatella Galletti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> > > My Hasenfuss- Weigert baroque is also "factory > > >>> > > tuned", as a gambist joking > > >>> > > told me. I hardly ever need to tune , especially if > > >>> > > I don't change keys or > > >>> > > if the weather is not too wet. I use a mixture of > > >>> > > Aquila and Pyramid > > >>> > > strings. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > (Ok, "hardly ever" means every two, three days, but > > >>> > > I've just had a > > >>> > > wonderful wine with a dessert which is a specialty > > >>> > > from Piedmont and I feel > > >>> > > quite optimistic...) > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Donatella > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > http://web.tiscali.it/awebd > > >>> > > > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> > > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>> > > To: "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Roman > > >>> > > Turovsky" > > >>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:52 PM > > >>> > > Subject: Re: lute outreach > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the > > >>> > > 10-hour >overnight ride to > > >>> > > > >Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat > > >>> > > in the >morning. I didn't > > >>> > > > >touch a peg for the rest of the weekend > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > So let me get this straight, your saying over a > > >>> > > three day period from > > >>> > > NY. > > >>> > > > In different rooms, hotel, houses, concert hall > > >>> > > etc. you didn't touch a > > >>> > > peg > > >>> > > > other than your 11th course. You are either > > >>> > > "pitch challenged", or prone > > >>> > > to > > >>> > > > spinning tall tales, most likely both! > > >>> > > > Michael Thames > > >>> > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > >>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> > > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>> > > > To: "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > >>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:28 AM > > >>> > > > Subject: Re: lute outreach > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > P.S. > > >>> > > > > 2 interesting details: > > >>> > > > > 1. Carbon strings held tuning throughout the > > >>> > > 10-hour overnight ride to > > >>> > > > > Cleveland. 11th course octave was a little flat > > >>> > > in the morning. I didn't > > >>> > > > > touch a peg for the rest of the weekend. > > >>> > > > > 2. Our program is on a controversial side, and > > >>> > > it might (and should) > > >>> > > have > > >>> > > > > caused considerable consternation on the part of > > >>> > > clergy of 4 > > >>> > > denominations > > >>> > > > > present (including an archbishop). But > > >>> > > Mar'jana's act consisted largely > > >>> > > > from > > >>> > > > > the songs she collected at the Carpathian > > >>> > > fertility rites, which are > > >>> > > > > basically Pagan, and outright scabrous. Imagine > > >>> > > what was going on in > > >>> > > > > celibate heads. > > >>> > > > > RT > > >>> > > > > ______________ > > >>> > > > > Roman M. Turovsky > > >>> > > > > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > > >>> > > at > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> >__________________________________________________ > > >>> >Do You Yahoo!? > > >>> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > >>> >http://mail.yahoo.com > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> >To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Edward Martin > > >>> 2817 East 2nd Street > > >>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > >>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> voice: (218) 728-1202 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are > > >confidential and > > >>> may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please > > >notify the > > >>> sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another > > >person, use > > >>> it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
