I'd like to take a step back from my theorising for a moment and ask 
medieval players what they think of playing a plectrum lute tuned for a 
mix of 5ths and 4ths. I recently changed my 6-c A-lute to a plectrum 
set-up (closer unisons, single bases) but am frustratingly unable to 
play and experiment till a shoulder injury heals.

This is a little radical from a 16th cent standpoint but perhaps not so 
odd to the single lines specialists of the yestercentury. I'm thinking 
of an instrument about 55cm w/ the bass note (5th course) tuned to Bb 
and the 4th course tuned to F. This should be sufficient for playing 
most tenors w/ a final on C, F or G (or transposed if nec).

Would it then be possible to tune the upper three courses to a schedule 
of 5ths? maybe a tuning related to a rebec (or following Ganassi's 
suggestion that if only 3 strings are available on a viol use 5ths). We 
could start with an A (or G?) on the 3rd course, have our familiar D on 
the 2nd and a G or A on the chanterelle.

As I see it, from this we could play an older plectrum style of 
polyphony that would divide the fingerboard into bass courses for the 
tenor line and upper courses for a cantus/counterpoint decoration.

As much as a feel the tenorista/counterpointer is the ideal duo, I 
can't believe it was always possible. Not all courts or situations 
could afford the luxury of hiring two people --and musicians can be 
kind of clever sometimes. I also feel that prior to the homogenising 
effect of the printing press, many individual pluckers were free to 
make their tunings as they saw fit. My question here is: Would this 
set-up afford one more problems than solutions to getting greater 
range, a self-sufficient plectrum instrument for limited polyphony, 
and, furthermore, one that could be held comfortably?

any ideas?

Sean


On Dec 1, 2006, at 2:14 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:

> Dear Sean, Mark and All
>       I just fully realized what your explanation could imply. If you tune
> down the the 5thc
> on a 5c lute, then you could permanently hold the 5c as if the thumb
> was a miniature capo.
> If I understand you correctly, then the string tension could be less
> on that diapason, which might join
> the comments by Martin Shepherd on the other thread relating to
> advantages of low tension on gut strings
> (M.S. [LUTE] Low tension strings 29 november 2006 10:35:22), as well
> as be a comfortable way of holding this
> type of lute.
>
> On my 7c lute, I always have the 7th course permanently tuned to D
> (rather than F). Now on my old student's lute, which
> had a very narrow neck I was able to "toy with" either thumb-over (or
> the little finger stretch), for the following frequently occurring
> pattern for 7c lute(VII=F), or 8c lute (VII=F,VIII=D):
> 1(c)
> 2(d)
> 3(d)
> 7(d) = F
> This makes the 7c almost equivalent to an 8c lute.
> However, on my wider Martin Haycock 7c Gerle lute, thumb-over with
> this pattern is nigh impossible, and
> I always use the little finger stretch.
> Carlos Gonzales lutemaker has suggested to the French list that
> Renaissance lutes may
> well have had narrower necks than most people play at present.
> Therefore, my old student
> lute might have been closer to Renaissance practise. However, as far
> as I can make it out,
> It would seem that this thumb-over position only occurs with 6 or 5c
> lutes judging from paintings.
> Of course this does not preclude a move between two positions (thumb-
> under to thumb-over)
> which might not be recorded in paintings.
>
> Mark
>       I am just thinking that the idea of the thumb-damping could perhaps
> be more relevant to metal
> wound strings. I think many lute players, even today, damp their
> metal wound strings (with the right-hand).
> However, on pure unwound gut strings the sustain almost instantly
> disappears when you release the
> course (I suppose this is relative, and damping could still make this
> more instantaneous) .
> Perhaps this may not be the case if the course is struck by a
> plectrum (I have never tried), so it still could be
> a position carried over from the days of plectrum use.
> Today, bass oud strings appear to be metal wound. Has this always
> been the case?
> Your  cittern example is, I feel sure, metal strung.
> In fact, this is one of the reasons why some people prefer all gut,
> as the basses (even without damping) don't tend
> to drown the high and mid. Another reason being the overall more
> homogenous sound
>
> This is just a secondary thought about the question, the idea remains
> extremely interesting, and
> obviously gives insight into thumb-over in many metal string contexts.
> Regards
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
> Le 30 nov. 06 à 22:59, Sean Smith a écrit :
>
>>
>> Indeed, Anthony, there are many variables involved and I don't think
>> it's possible to rule it out or in. I only brought up the possible
>> solution to show that the musical example itself is more vague than
>> the
>> graphic examples on AJN's page.
>>
>> Consider this scenerio:
>>
>> In performing a tenor and counterpoint by one's self (possibly
>> exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c
>> lute, it
>> is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below
>> the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course,
>> 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This
>> would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could
>> still
>> hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well
>> for, say, Conde claros.
>>
>> With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th
>> course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the
>> lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned.
>>
>> Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the
>> vihuelas
>> de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there
>> would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a
>> discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most
>> beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for
>> multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course)
>>
>> I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this "thumb over"
>> technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and
>> some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints
>> remained popular. No harm, no foul either way.
>>
>> Ok, a question: is there a name for this? "Thumb over" vs "Thumb
>> behind", maybe? --I seem to recall that "Thumb out" and "Thumb under"
>> are taken.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:
>>
>>> Sean and All
>>>     There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb
>>> was used, and
>>> the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is
>>> whether there is another
>>> way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even
>>> stronger; but then
>>> there are all these images which need explaining.
>>>
>>> Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be
>>> reproduced
>>>   by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see
>>> if they were even possible?
>>> In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction
>>> and what the
>>> Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to
>>> click their thumbs,
>>> as it were.
>>> Best
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to get caught up in the thumb<-->no thumb debate on the
>>>> 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of
>>>> Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a
>>>> Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere).
>>>>
>>>> First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#):
>>>>
>>>> 2(3)----
>>>> --------
>>>> 3(4)----
>>>> 2(2)-1(1)
>>>> --------
>>>> 2(2)----
>>>>
>>>> The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th
>>>> course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the
>>>> wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have put some more examples here, including two
>>>>> supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example.
>>>>> And some other pictures.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ==ajn.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
>>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM
>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a
>>>>>> ecrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Anthony and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am
>>>>>>> playing mainly
>>>>>>> a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute
>>>>>>> I tried to
>>>>>>> avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked
>>>>>>> well for me
>>>>>>> on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century
>>>>>>> guitar tutors are
>>>>>>> said to know this technique, too) and I later learned
>>>>>>> that Ganassi
>>>>>>> mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal
>>>>>>> accompaniments
>>>>>>> (and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the
>>>>>>> six-course lute) but
>>>>>>> I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...
>>>>>> Thank you Joachim
>>>>>> But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by
>>>>>> some to be of him
>>>>>> (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como),
>>>>>> there he is with
>>>>>> his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see
>>>>>> http://le.luth.free.fr/
>>>>>> renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I
>>>>>> think it may
>>>>>> have been argued that this could be a protrait of him
>>>>>> in Lute
>>>>>> Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone,
>>>>>> Portraiture of
>>>>>> Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see  the juxtaposed
>>>>>> comparison between
>>>>>> this and a known portrait at :
>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/
>>>>>> Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).
>>>>>> but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing
>>>>>> position.
>>>>>> All the best
>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>> All best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joachim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> schrieb:
>>>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>>>     In Lute News N=B079,  P.25, we  can read that
>>>>>>>> "The January
>>>>>>> 2006 (Vol
>>>>>>>> 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of
>>>>>>>> using the left
>>>>>>>> thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen
>>>>>>>>   in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often
>>>>>>>> seen in folk guitar
>>>>>>>> techniques. I suppose the article in question was
>>>>>>>> "All Fingers and
>>>>>>>> Thumbs"  by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read).
>>>>>>>> The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie
>>>>>>>> Poirier shows this
>>>>>>>> clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html).
>>>>>>>> Several
>>>>>>> members of
>>>>>>>> the French lute list have suggested that this might
>>>>>>>> only have
>>>>>>> been on
>>>>>>>> relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a
>>>>>>>> semi-circular
>>>>>>>> section (rather than the later wider flatter
>>>>>>>> necks). It has also
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason
>>>>>>>> and octave would
>>>>>>>> have been very close together, to assist in this
>>>>>>>> "thumb-blocking".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It almost seems as though the neck-shape is
>>>>>>>> intended to fit  ;in
>>>>>>> to the   ;
>>>>>>>> curve of the hand for this technique.
>>>>>>>> However, I would like to ask if any of you actually
>>>>>>>> hold this
>>>>>>> type of
>>>>>>>> lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb
>>>>>>>> over diapason
>>>>>>>> technique.
>>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Dr. Joachim Ludtke
>>>>>>> Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
>>>>>>> D - 93164 Laaber
>>>>>>> Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



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