Dear Jaroslaw and All > If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must > have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration > differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's > trade mark.
Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has to say about his experiments with oil paint. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts (Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it was then realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, '' salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments". In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took place. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown). A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm) However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist is not just sketching-in the strings. Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets, for example; so why would the painter have just sketched the bass string? Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Caravaggio with slightly different colours: http://tinyurl.com/cbsjac >> I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical >> correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the problems >> (ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice >> (Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment, >> twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain a >> homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the inharmonicity >> of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to resolve the >> contradictiory need for short trebles and very long basses >> (either by loading, or by using extensions for the basses, or a >> combination of the two). > > And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones as much > as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way. I think historical research should be used to open up new-old possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. Indeed, at first, it was just a modern problem I was trying to solve when I adopted Venices on 5c and 4c to eliminate a break in the flow across the "Meanes" on my 7c lute (caused by having a Lyons on 5c and a simple HT on 4c). I had no idea at that point, that Dowland and Mace had "defined" such a category as "Meanes" for which the same string type should be used. Later I realized that I had just redisocovered it for myself. Then on ordering an 11c lute, I was made aware of the modern severe 'intonation" problems that I was told would not fail to occur if I adopted pure gut basses, on a Baroque lute. I was warned by many to adopt some sort of wirewound or a very very long string length (not really suitable for French Baroque). Gimped strings seemed the only way out, if I wanted to use gut, until Mimmo's loaded strings were announced. This is a Baroque lute problem, but it is the same today as it must have been then. How can you have bass strings in pure gut on such a small lute as Charles Mouton's (or the Vienna Frey) and not have severe intonation problems? Gamut calculates C-11, at 66.5mm, 392Hz at 2K6 gives 2.04mm Notice how thin they appear on the de Troy painting, and this small diameter is confirmed by the small historic bass string lute holes found on similar lutes now in museums. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Mouton.jpg My 11c lute with red loaded Venice strings http://tinyurl.com/b3olq7 Lindberg's brown first generation loaded strings. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Lindberg.jpg By then I was very aware of the historic issues, but also the practical ones (which really are the same in essence). The ancients had so much more experience with gut than we do, so any snippits of information we can find can help us even now. My next tweak will be trying out Venice twines for the lower octaves (7c down). Previously, I was just looking to solve a modern problem, and found out that perhaps this corresponded to a historical solution. This time I am going to take Mace's advice, with no idea of what it will give me. Mace states one should use the same string type for the lower octaves of a Baroque lute as you use for the Meanes : 4c and 5c. Well actually he names the strings, Venice Catlines, but I am just taking this advice to mean, use the same type that work well on your Meanes. However, I do think there are far more problems to solve with the gut stringing of a Baroque lute than with a Renaissance one. Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these problems. How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture, if players personal research come up with varied solutions. That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to basses, while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis, will, I hope, result in less standardization, not more. Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French Baroque), and low tension strings do not actually allow such a small diameter as shown by historic lute holes. I still do hope to hear more lutenists adopting the loaded solution, and perhaps demifile for later Baroque. This has to be a personal choice for each lutenist, and some clearly feel that strings contribute such a small part to their overall performance, that synthetics will do, or are even better. Not that they are without their own problems: at least for French Baroque: lack of homogeneity, tonal problems, lack of warmth, and loss of clarity; for which the lutensist may well be able to compensate with the right technique and touch. > >> Mimmo's loaded strings, for example, can allow us to use a fairly >> short 11c Baroque lute, such as that shown in the Charles Mouton >> portrait without resorting to wirewounds or Gimped strings, and >> without poisoning ourselves. This probably gives tonal shades >> closer to those on Ch.M's lute, but not exactly those of his >> particular loaded strings, and of course his lute may well have >> been an ancient Bologna one, giving its own tonal characteristics >> to the whole. >> And this is but one factor in a performance of Charles Mouton's >> music. Some may consider it small in comparison with a deep >> understanding of his rhetoric, or the fact that we can not hope >> to have his touch and musical ear, but it can be one element in >> coming closer to understanding the music of the period; > > Well, we will never be able to copy performances from the past, > and I don't think this is what we should look for. The musician > each time has to create something anew because the Music is the > living art. > It is the sort of contradictory status of a performer of early music. We are no longer steeped in a tradition that both constrains and frees us within its limits (or even to push at its limits and innovate). How much each modern lutenist wants to stay within those limits (if he can be sure what they are) is a matter of his own personal choice as an artist and a result of his own research and taste, but is he in a position to truly innovate, to create new rules, within that tradition? Perhaps, that might differentiate the modern interpreter from the performer-composer of the time. Regards Anthony PS I know you are aware of most of these arguments, but I see new names in this thread, who perhaps are not. PPS I remember you saying that the most important thing was not whether loaded strings were historic, but whether they worked. About the quality of Mimmo's loaded strings, I will just quote DvO: "Loaded gut basses do not fray or break as gut trebles tend to do, and do not wear out as wound strings do. (I suppose that even makes them cheaper than wound strings, in the long run.) They give no significant tuning troubles. And guess what, they're designed to sound like loaded guts! By the way, they are a pleasure to play and sound really, really good! " Le 23 févr. 09 à 19:55, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : > Dear Anthony, > >> but DvE must have used it, and what about all those athletes who >> use dangerous substances to improve their performances? > > David probably used it just to hear how it would sound like, but as > I found on his site, he stated he never really dare to use it. > As for sport, well, than we have to consider if we want to develop > in that direction. > >> Is this similar? It is the above lead oxide ones. To me, they >> look very similar to the ones in the painting: > > No, in MM the strings are just of copper color neither red as > David's nor brown as yours. > >> However, Mimmo thinks the long basses may be too thick to have >> been loaded. He rather suspects that the 6th might be loaded, as >> it is equal in size to the 5th. However, this is a painting. Can >> we be sure the thickness of those basses is accurate. To me the >> colour is very much that of lead oxide. > > If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have been > dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration > differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's > trade mark. > >> I think there are perhaps reasons why full wirewounds might be >> problematic to make at that time, but in any case no source >> mentions them. > > This is correct, at least we don't know of such a source, although > we can't exclued possibility of finding some new evidence. > > >> I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical >> correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the problems >> (ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice >> (Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment, >> twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain a >> homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the inharmonicity >> of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to resolve the >> contradictiory need for short trebles and very long basses >> (either by loading, or by using extensions for the basses, or a >> combination of the two). > > And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones as much > as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way. > >> Mimmo's loaded strings, for example, can allow us to use a fairly >> short 11c Baroque lute, such as that shown in the Charles Mouton >> portrait without resorting to wirewounds or Gimped strings, and >> without poisoning ourselves. This probably gives tonal shades >> closer to those on Ch.M's lute, but not exactly those of his >> particular loaded strings, and of course his lute may well have >> been an ancient Bologna one, giving its own tonal characteristics >> to the whole. >> And this is but one factor in a performance of Charles Mouton's >> music. Some may consider it small in comparison with a deep >> understanding of his rhetoric, or the fact that we can not hope >> to have his touch and musical ear, but it can be one element in >> coming closer to understanding the music of the period; > > Well, we will never be able to copy performances from the past, > and I don't think this is what we should look for. The musician > each time has to create something anew because the Music is the > living art. > > All the best > Jaroslaw > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
