Dear Jaroslaw
       I will begin by the end:
I have to stress here, that I am not against loaded strings even if it may sound paradoxicaly. I admire Mimmo's great contribution in finding the best strings for a modern lute player. I use his strings very often and will advice them to other musicians as well. The only difference between our attitude is the reason for doing so. Assuming that if one day it definitely occurs that from historical point of view there is no such a thing as loaded strings ,will you take them off your lute and throw away? I won't, because if I choose something it means that I like it best! What I am trying to say is that in strugling to be HIP one can forget the most important thing, namely the Music. This is our obligation as early musicians to search the truth about the past. As somebody posted recently "the theorbo is made of dreams" I would add "so is the Music". And will use any means to attain this including strings. I love pure gut on my renaissance lute, it's feeling and tone, but am open much more to experiment with the baroque lute stringing (as Miguel Serdoura, Nigel North and many others do).


I entirely agree with you, and I don't think our attitude is all that different. if I was so pleased to be able to use Mimmo's loaded strings (as I did say below) it was to solve a modern problem that also happens to have been an ancient one, just because the properties of gut have not changed. I like the homogenous sound of all gut at least up to French Baroque lute music. In this respect, Mimmo's loaded strings came as such a relief, I really did not want to use wirewounds, because I don't like the break in sound as you move across the voices, and I don't like the silver shimmer. This may or may not be a historical preference, but even the brightness from Gimped strings does bother me, but I would have used them rather than resort to wirewounds, even though these have made progress (see the Aquila DE type, a fall-out from Mimmo's loaded string research, I believe).

Probably the most important aims in Mimmo's historic research is trying to rediscover the tonal qualities that early string treatments may have given to gut strings, not bringing back the exact replica of an early string (as some seem to regret when mentioning lead oxide loadeds). Some of these qualities can also be transferred to synthetic strings so that the palette of choices for the lutenist, HIP or not, becomes much greater. I believe it must be up to the lutenist (and perhaps his audience) just exactly what string choices, hand positions, etc are best for them.

I don't believe in historical correctness per se, as I made it quite clear, here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg27987.html
I also recognize that HIP strings, HIP hand position (according to the iconography) are nothing without a thorough knowledge of the grammar of rhetoric (if we are talking of French Baroque music) and above all a good ear, or rather to quote Jerzy Zak, "a player needs a good ear and a complex musical inteligence which guides him how to get the most from his instrument (when he picks up another instrument he may find that another method or place to place his fingers is better). An instantanous feed-back is a pre condition"

As to the colour question, it is fairly secondary. Although, everyone would like to be able to see and hold old loaded string, and so paintings seem somehow better than indirect arguments from small bass string holes (with simmultaneous short string lengths), but of course the latter are much more convincing.

And in short, as I have said several times before, if loaded strings were not historic, how grateful would Charles Mouton have been to throw away the massive bass strings, which he would have grudgingly had to use on his short Baroque lute, at least as grateful as I was to Mimmo not to have had to use wirewounds; but Charles would not even have had those to fall-back on.

As to the question of red being good or bad, Mace is ambiguous. He mentions the quality of Red pistoys, but presumably red may not have been a good sign in all types of gut. Some plain gut is reddish, and this may be what he is referring to. Loading would definitely conserve strings better, they absorb less humidity, as you can observe when using Mimmo's loaded strings.

Dyeing and loading, are a different concept to us, but colouring leather is both loading and dyeing, and to the observer who does not know which process has been used, it is difficult to distinguish the two. For example, I am not sure why Mimmo's loaded strings are now reddish and not brownish. It could be a difference in loading or in dyeing, or both.

I entirely agree with your conclusion:
Well, our possition is very strange, because the Old Ones never played early music (they always played something new), so in imitaiting them we should do the same but aren't able to. In my opinion the only solution is to express one's personality in individual way within the given limits, however breaking them will mean departing from the early music world. How long there will be a need for this type of performance? Who knows? But it seems that there are always people who want to listen to Bach, Mozart or Bethoven and they hopefuly won't disapear for ever.

Best wishes
Anthony


Le 26 févr. 09 à 15:01, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :

Dear Anthony,
I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence.

        

However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used
on other strings than basses, just to help conservation.
Mace tells us about rotten strings:
"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet,
but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of
the decay of the string."
This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help
conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are
often rotten).

I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger...." Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded.

Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they
call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice-
Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour."
So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from
Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome.

Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word).

Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time
of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed
theirs red.
to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the
speculation).

The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red commonly rotten". Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; sometimes green, very good." If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why he says the red strings were commonly rotten? It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with decay preventing.

There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like
loading.
On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a
lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might
well be a loaded 7c-D.
http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3

The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet.

Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is
loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative
thinness.
http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo

Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now.

I think historical research should be used to open up new-old
possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other
personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices.

Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is.

Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if
every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these
problems.
How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture,
if players personal research come up with varied solutions.
That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to basses,
while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis, will, I
hope, result in less standardization, not more.
Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French Baroque),
and low tension strings do not actually allow such a small diameter
as shown by historic lute holes.
 I still do hope to hear more lutenists adopting the loaded
solution, and perhaps demifile for later Baroque.
This has to be a personal choice for each lutenist, and some
clearly feel that strings contribute such a small part to their
overall performance, that synthetics will do, or are even better. Not
that they are without their own problems: at least for French
Baroque: lack of homogeneity, tonal problems, lack of warmth, and
loss of clarity;  for which the lutensist may well be able to
compensate with the right technique and touch.

I have to stress here, that I am not against loaded strings even if it may sound paradoxicaly. I admire Mimmo's great contribution in finding the best strings for a modern lute player. I use his strings very often and will advice them to other musicians as well. The only difference between our attitude is the reason for doing so. Assuming that if one day it definitely occurs that from historical point of view there is no such a thing as loaded strings ,will you take them off your lute and throw away? I won't, because if I choose something it means that I like it best! What I am trying to say is that in strugling to be HIP one can forget the most important thing, namely the Music. This is our obligation as early musicians to search the truth about the past. As somebody posted recently "the theorbo is made of dreams" I would add "so is the Music". And will use any means to attain this including strings. I love pure gut on my renaissance lute, it's feeling and tone, but am open much more to experiment with the baroque lute stringing (as Miguel Serdoura, Nigel North and many others do).

It is the sort of contradictory status of a performer of early music.
We are no longer steeped in a tradition that both constrains and
frees us within its limits (or even to push at its limits and
innovate). How much each modern lutenist wants to stay within those
limits (if he can be sure what they are) is a matter of his own
personal choice as an artist and a result of his own research and
taste, but is he in a position to truly innovate, to create new
rules, within that tradition? Perhaps, that might differentiate the
modern interpreter from the performer-composer of the time.

Well, our possition is very strange, because the Old Ones never played early music (they always played something new), so in imitaiting them we should do the same but aren't able to. In my opinion the only solution is to express one's personality in individual way within the given limits, however breaking them will mean departing from the early music world. How long there will be a need for this type of performance? Who knows? But it seems that there are always people who want to listen to Bach, Mozart or Bethoven and they hopefuly won't disapear for ever.

Best wishes
Jaroslaw



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