Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt
At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >Dear Anthony, > >I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. > >>However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used >>on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. >>Mace tells us about rotten strings: >>"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, >>but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of >>the decay of the string." >>This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help >>conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are >>often rotten). > >I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger...." >Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. > >>Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they >>call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- >>Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." >>So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from >>Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. > >Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >most common meaning of this word). > >>Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time >>of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed >>theirs red. >>to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the >>speculation). > >The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark >you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But >they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are >hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace >describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red >commonly rotten". >Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are >several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my >observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; >sometimes green, very good." >If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why >he says the red strings were commonly rotten? >It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with >decay preventing. > >>There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like >>loading. >>On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a >>lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might >>well be a loaded 7c-D. >>http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 > >The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red >bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet. > >>Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is >>loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative >>thinness. >>http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo > >Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the >bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian >traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the >other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now. > >>I think historical research should be used to open up new-old >>possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other >>personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. > >Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is. > >>Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if >>every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these >>problems. >>How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture, >>if players personal research come up with varied solutions. >>That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to basses, >>while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis, will, I >>hope, result in less standardization, not more. >>Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French Baroque), >>and low tension strings do not actually allow such a small diameter >>as shown by historic lute holes. >> I still do hope to hear more lutenists adopting the loaded >>solution, and perhaps demifile for later Baroque. >>This has to be a personal choice for each lutenist, and some >>clearly feel that strings contribute such a small part to their >>overall performance, that synthetics will do, or are even better. Not >>that they are without their own problems: at least for French >>Baroque: lack of homogeneity, tonal problems, lack of warmth, and >>loss of clarity; for which the lutensist may well be able to >>compensate with the right technique and touch. > >I have to stress here, that I am not against loaded strings even if >it may sound paradoxicaly. I admire Mimmo's great contribution in >finding the best strings for a modern lute player. I use his strings >very often and will advice them to other musicians as well. The only >difference between our attitude is the reason for doing so. Assuming >that if one day it definitely occurs that from historical point of >view there is no such a thing as loaded strings ,will you take them >off your lute and throw away? I won't, because if I choose something >it means that I like it best! What I am trying to say is that in >strugling to be HIP one can forget the most important thing, namely >the Music. This is our obligation as early musicians to search the >truth about the past. As somebody posted recently "the theorbo is >made of dreams" I would add "so is the Music". And will use any >means to attain this including strings. I love pure gut on my >renaissance lute, it's feeling and tone, but am open much more to >experiment with the baroque lute stringing (as Miguel Serdoura, >Nigel North and many others do). >> >>It is the sort of contradictory status of a performer of early music. >>We are no longer steeped in a tradition that both constrains and >>frees us within its limits (or even to push at its limits and >>innovate). How much each modern lutenist wants to stay within those >>limits (if he can be sure what they are) is a matter of his own >>personal choice as an artist and a result of his own research and >>taste, but is he in a position to truly innovate, to create new >>rules, within that tradition? Perhaps, that might differentiate the >>modern interpreter from the performer-composer of the time. > >Well, our possition is very strange, because the Old Ones never >played early music (they always played something new), so in >imitaiting them we should do the same but aren't able to. In my >opinion the only solution is to express one's personality in >individual way within the given limits, however breaking them will >mean departing from the early music world. How long there will be a >need for this type of performance? Who knows? But it seems that >there are always people who want to listen to Bach, Mozart or >Bethoven and they hopefuly won't disapear for ever. > >Best wishes >Jaroslaw > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
