Dear Stewart,
It's certainly odd if the amplification used for your large scale
social events is used more generally which is what you appeared to
suggest by your view that 'if you want people to hear what you are
playing, there are times when amplification has its uses' ; this might
appear to condone almost anything merely on a personal whim.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
To: "Lute Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 10:52
Dear Martyn,
The problem with discussions of this sort is that we often have
different things in mind, and the thread has covered different kinds
of
performance.
I agree that an amplifier would be out of place for a HIP
performance
say for a lute recital in a church, but if, for example, you agree
to
play the lute as background music for a social occasion, when people
are sipping champagne, munching canapes, and talking loudly to each
other, you have to be amplified or you won't be heard. My view is
that
it is better for people to hear and enjoy amplified lute music on
such
occasions, than not hear and not enjoy HIP lute music without
amplification. I don't see anything odd about that.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-----Original Message-----
From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 20 October 2010 08:55
To: Stewart McCoy
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute volume
Dear Stewart,
This seems an odd view to me - surely if we have any pretensions to
trying to hear what the early auditors heard we ought to eschew such
electronic amplification - otherwise we end up with a sound world
the
composer could not have reasonable expected. If the lute is not
audible
and the player's skill (and ability to play loud - for a lute) is
undoubted perhaps the difficulty lies in the unecessarily raised
volume
of other parts (vocal and instrumental)?
I think the key is where you say 'if you want people to hear what
you
are playing' .....
yours
Martyn
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Stewart McCoy <[2]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Stewart McCoy <[3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
To: "Lute Net" <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 0:59
Cher Valery,
No, it's not HIP to play with amplification, but if you want people
to
hear what you are playing, there are times when amplification has
its
uses. Better to be amplified than not heard at all.
Amities,
Stewart.
-----Original Message-----
From: [1][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Sauvage Valery
Sent: 19 October 2010 10:18
To: [3][7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is
coherent
with what was said about gut strings...
If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps.
Same
conditions as yesteryears...
No ?
V ;-)
-----Message d'origine-----
De : [4][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[5][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
De la
part
de Peter Martin
Envoye : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11
A : Lute list
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Ah, amplification...
I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a
couple
of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh
updates?
I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without
a
little electronic help.
Peter
On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy
<[1][6][10]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
Dear Howard,
I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which
counts
with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor
may
choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice,
because it
will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments.
There
has
to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is
one)
to
get
it right.
One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the
other
instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of
chemicals.
For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a
harpsichord,
reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet,
silvery
tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case
that
people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the
theorbo
in
a
group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would
notice
the
difference if it wasn't there.
There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear
the
theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other
continuo
instruments to sit out.
I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument
which
cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished.
That
is
one
reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras
years
ago
-
why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players
playing
the
same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there
would
be
no
orchestra.
However, there are circumstances (playing background music
while
people
talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room,
playing
alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when
plucked
instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all,
and
it
is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If
that
is
the case, there is little point playing without amplification.
It
is
sad
if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of
a
performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-----Original Message-----
From: [2][7][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3][8][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of howard posner
Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote:
> Howard,
Huh? Wait, that's me!
> Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did
not
hear me
as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously
perceivable
part
of the composite tonal aggregate?
Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no
reason
to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in
1850
or
is
now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other
instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann
symphony
for an extreme example in its time.
BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster
at
your
concert had asked someone in the audience "Could you hear me?"
the
answer would have been, "Never. I couldn't distinguish your
sound
from
the other first violinists'". The same is true of the organist
in
most
ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a
jazz
big
band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in
these
cases
is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better
the
group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp,
then
the
Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was
watching
Neil
Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play
together
with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. "I
don't
know whether it's good or bad," Kemp said.
> Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for
baroque
music.
There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending
tone
colors into "new sonorities" or Klangfarbenmelodie in the
manner
of
Ravel or Schoenberg.
But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very
conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations
of
sonorities.
> Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and
violins
play
the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little
regard
baroque composers had for the actual colors of the instruments:
I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization of their
regard,
but since it pretty much proves my point, there's a limit to
how
hard
I'll protest. In his operas, Handel typically expected one
treble
sound
composed of oboe/violin, and a bass sound composed of
cello/bassoon/harpsichord/theorbo/violone. He was obviously
unconcerned
with whether the bassoons were heard as bassoons: he just
wanted a
good,
strong sound.
> "If the part fits your register, play it for all I care."
I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization even
more
than I
was inclined to agree with the characterization above (with
which
was I
inclined to disagree, as noted above in the sentence that
started
"I'd
be inclined to disagree...") but since it pretty much proves
etc.
...
> If Bach didn't have an oboist on a particular day for an
obligato
part, he had no qualms about re-writing it for traverso or
violin,
transposing if needed.
I know of no instance in which Bach is known to have rewritten
a
part
because someone wasn't available on a particular day. Do you?
> How many times must this sort of thing have happened on the
fly,
with
nothing being written down?
Twelve. Thirteen, if you include that time in Frankfurt in
1752.
Not a
lot, really...
> ("We've got a great virtuoso guest chalumeau player with us
today,
Herr Bach." "Well, I ain't got nothin' fer chalumeau, but tell
him
to
take the traverso obligato on the third aria.") I don't think
Handel
or
Telemann or either one of the Grauns ever thought, "This
harpsichord
is
doing the job fine on its own, but it is a little thin
sounding.
Let's
get a theorbo in here to warm it up, stat!
They didn't have to think about it. They assumed the theorbo
and
harpsichord were both available, for the same reason they
assumed
the
violins and oboes were both available: because they were
available.
> And tell the guy, even though it really goes without saying,
that
although the theorbo player CAN play to be heard, he needs to
be a
part
of the musical texture without actually being noticed as a
discrete
sound.
This is a very theorbocentric view of the whole matter. It's
more
accurate to say that how the audience hears the theorbo, as
such,
is
less important to the director (who needs to worry about the
overall
sound and overall balance) than it is to the theorbo player.
If
the
continuo sounds good and supports the singers, the director may
not
care
at all if anyone can make out the theorbo separately. And in a
lot
of
venues where the acoustics are imperfect, the subtlety of
different
continuo colors might be an unaffordable luxury.
It could be that your directors are bozos who don't know what
theorbos
are for. It could also be that they have a much better notion
of
how
things sound than the theorbo player in the middle of the mix
does.
But
worrying about the theorbo player's desire to be heard isn't in
their
job description.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4][9][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Peter Martin
24 The Mount St Georges
Second Avenue
Newcastle under Lyme
ST5 8RB
tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089
mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614
[5][10][14]peter.l...@gmail.com
--
References
1. mailto:[11][15]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
2. mailto:[12][16]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:[13][17]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. [14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:[15][19]peter.l...@gmail.com
--
References
1.
[20]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
2.
[21]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
3.
[22]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4.
[23]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
5.
[24]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
6.
[25]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
7.
[26]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
8.
[27]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
9. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10.
[29]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
11.
[30]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
12.
[31]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
13.
[32]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
14. [33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15.
[34]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
--
References
1. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
11. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
15. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
16. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
20. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
24. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
26. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
27. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
30. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
31. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
32. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
34. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter.l...@gmail.com
