I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness. Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute had a high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of equal diameter. The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma meantone temperament which most of us seem to use. I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are placed at equal intervals. There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century luteplayer, most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears.
Cheers, Lex Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: > Anthony, > the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that that > familial harmony > was disrupted by a death. > And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in > real life. > RT > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> > To: "Ed Durbrow" <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; "Martyn Hodgson" > <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project > > >> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >> >> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an >> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the >> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be able >> to >> enlighten me? >> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite different >> from >> >> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of the >> time? >> >> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much >> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the practise >> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it was >> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >> >> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give the >> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be >> almost >> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >> necessarily >> >> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >> (doubtful?) >> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a >> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of >> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been focussed >> on >> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the complex >> primary symbolic message conveyed. >> >> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the instruments >> are >> >> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the date of >> Good Friday 1533. >> >> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the instruments >> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two >> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >> misaligned >> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an oversight >> on >> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the >> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >> >> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens out >> of >> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >> suggested by >> >> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by the >> lute >> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >> >> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the lute is >> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is evident; >> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be viewer >> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not ideally >> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those principles >> were >> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >> >> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would >> appear >> to be almost equal in thickness. >> >> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as >> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height >> have >> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 >> (due >> to the equal fretting)? >> >> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the >> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the >> painter >> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the >> painter >> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although if we >> accept >> >> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time (1533), >> or >> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those in >> the >> >> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to >> play. >> >> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later suggestion >> by >> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER >> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret >> sizes >> to strings of the lute, >> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >> >> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a flaw >> in my >> >> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, and >> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the bridge >> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating for >> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >> >> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added loaded >> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps the >> expected >> >> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the raising >> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >> >> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, particularly >> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be >> thinner >> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest possible >> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out that >> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been >> chosen >> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, and >> the bolder >> >> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast this. >> >> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings (possibly >> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which is >> also >> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than >> significant of a general practise. >> >> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply show >> my >> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as equal; or >> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem (I >> seem >> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >> "balbutiements". >> >> Regards >> Anthony >> >> ----- Message d'origine ---- >> De : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >> À : LuteNet list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s >> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >> >> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! >> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my >> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or >> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >> >> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using >> carbon fiber. :-) >> >> >> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >> bas >> >> sadors >> >> Ed Durbrow >> Saitama, Japan >> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> > >
