I'm sorry to hear that, because it means going to early music concerts must be a torment for you in most cases.
Lvs Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:33 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: > That's why we have so much music in minor keys, n'est ce pas? > I for one can't stand half-ass minor thirds. > RT > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com> > To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:28 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project > > >> Minor thirds were regarded as more or less dissonant anyway, and maybe the >> so called Elisabethan Melancholy was to be expressed using insufferable >> minor thirds. >> >> LvS >> Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:21 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >> >>> It can also be really insufferable, when it renders >>> minor 3rds too wide. >>> RT >>> >>> From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com> >>> To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:17 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>> >>> >>>> Not all of them were and are. >>>> A 6th comma meantone temperament upon g on a Renaissancelute tunes to g' >>>> is quite pleasant to the ear, well my ear at least. >>>> I find that when I just tune my lute to the sound I want to hear it ends >>>> up being in this temperament. >>>> >>>> Cheers, Lex >>>> Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:12 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >>>> >>>>> Those temperaments were and are for masochists. >>>>> RT >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com> >>>>> To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:59 AM >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness. >>>>>> Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute >>>>>> had a high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of >>>>>> equal diameter. >>>>>> The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma >>>>>> meantone temperament which most of us seem to use. >>>>>> I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are >>>>>> placed at equal intervals. >>>>>> There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century >>>>>> luteplayer, most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, Lex >>>>>> Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anthony, >>>>>>> the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that >>>>>>> that familial harmony >>>>>>> was disrupted by a death. >>>>>>> And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) >>>>>>> in real life. >>>>>>> RT >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>>>>>> To: "Ed Durbrow" <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; "Martyn Hodgson" >>>>>>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>>>>>> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the >>>>>>>> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be >>>>>>>> able to >>>>>>>> enlighten me? >>>>>>>> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite >>>>>>>> different from >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing >>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>> time? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much >>>>>>>> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >>>>>>>> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >>>>>>>> practise >>>>>>>> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as >>>>>>>> it was >>>>>>>> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might >>>>>>>> be almost >>>>>>>> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >>>>>>>> (doubtful?) >>>>>>>> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up >>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >>>>>>>> focussed on >>>>>>>> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the >>>>>>>> complex >>>>>>>> primary symbolic message conveyed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >>>>>>>> instruments are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the >>>>>>>> date of >>>>>>>> Good Friday 1533. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >>>>>>>> instruments >>>>>>>> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, >>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >>>>>>>> misaligned >>>>>>>> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >>>>>>>> oversight on >>>>>>>> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the >>>>>>>> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the >>>>>>>> heavens out of >>>>>>>> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >>>>>>>> suggested by >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by >>>>>>>> the lute >>>>>>>> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >>>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the >>>>>>>> lute is >>>>>>>> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >>>>>>>> evident; >>>>>>>> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be >>>>>>>> viewer >>>>>>>> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not >>>>>>>> ideally >>>>>>>> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those >>>>>>>> principles were >>>>>>>> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, >>>>>>>> would appear >>>>>>>> to be almost equal in thickness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as >>>>>>>> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string >>>>>>>> height have >>>>>>>> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at >>>>>>>> fret 8 (due >>>>>>>> to the equal fretting)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the >>>>>>>> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the >>>>>>>> painter >>>>>>>> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the >>>>>>>> painter >>>>>>>> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; >>>>>>>> although if we >>>>>>>> accept >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >>>>>>>> (1533), or >>>>>>>> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that >>>>>>>> those in the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult >>>>>>>> to play. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >>>>>>>> suggestion by >>>>>>>> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER >>>>>>>> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates >>>>>>>> fret sizes >>>>>>>> to strings of the lute, >>>>>>>> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >>>>>>>> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >>>>>>>> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >>>>>>>> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a >>>>>>>> flaw in my >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal >>>>>>>> frets, and >>>>>>>> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the >>>>>>>> bridge >>>>>>>> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be >>>>>>>> compensating for >>>>>>>> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added >>>>>>>> loaded >>>>>>>> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus >>>>>>>> perhaps the >>>>>>>> expected >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the >>>>>>>> raising >>>>>>>> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, >>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might >>>>>>>> be thinner >>>>>>>> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest >>>>>>>> possible >>>>>>>> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point >>>>>>>> out that >>>>>>>> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have >>>>>>>> been chosen >>>>>>>> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they >>>>>>>> represent, and >>>>>>>> the bolder >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast >>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >>>>>>>> (possibly >>>>>>>> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, >>>>>>>> which is also >>>>>>>> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> significant of a general practise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps >>>>>>>> simply show my >>>>>>>> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as >>>>>>>> equal; or >>>>>>>> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular >>>>>>>> problem (I seem >>>>>>>> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >>>>>>>> "balbutiements". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Message d'origine ---- >>>>>>>> De : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >>>>>>>> À : LuteNet list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>>> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s >>>>>>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! >>>>>>>> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my >>>>>>>> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or >>>>>>>> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >>>>>>>> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using >>>>>>>> carbon fiber. :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>>>>>>> bas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sadors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed Durbrow >>>>>>>> Saitama, Japan >>>>>>>> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>>>>> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> References >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>>>>>>> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>>>>> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >
