I really find the baroque lute and its music more picky in this respect than the renaissancelute and music.
LvS Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:25 heeft Anthony Hind het volgende geschreven: > I have been using 6th comma on my Baroque lute, in spite of warnings from > many > that it should sound dischordant, and it hasn't (at least not to my ears, or > to > those of my lutenist visitors. > Anthony > > > > > ----- Message d'origine ---- > De : Lex van Sante <lvansa...@gmail.com> > À : lute mailing list list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Envoyé le : Mar 8 février 2011, 16h 17min 49s > Objet : [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project > > Not all of them were and are. > A 6th comma meantone temperament upon g on a Renaissancelute tunes to g' is > quite pleasant to the ear, well my ear at least. > I find that when I just tune my lute to the sound I want to hear it ends up > being in this temperament. > > Cheers, Lex > Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:12 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: > >> Those temperaments were and are for masochists. >> RT >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com> >> To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:59 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >> >> >>> I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness. >>> Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute had >>> a >>> high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of equal >>> diameter. >>> The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma meantone >>> temperament which most of us seem to use. >>> I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are placed >>> at >>> equal intervals. >>> There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century >>> luteplayer, >>> most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears. >>> >>> Cheers, Lex >>> Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >>> >>>> Anthony, >>>> the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that that >>>> familial harmony >>>> was disrupted by a death. >>>> And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in >>>> real >>>> life. >>>> RT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>>> To: "Ed Durbrow" <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; "Martyn Hodgson" >>>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>>> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >>>>> >>>>> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an >>>>> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the >>>>> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be >>>>> able >>>> to >>>>> enlighten me? >>>>> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite >>>>> different >>>> from >>>>> >>>>> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of > the >>>>> time? >>>>> >>>>> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much >>>>> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >>>>> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >> practise >>>>> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it >>>>> was >>>>> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >>>>> >>>>> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give > the >>>>> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be >>> almost >>>>> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >>>>> necessarily >>>>> >>>>> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >>>> (doubtful?) >>>>> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a >>>>> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of >>>>> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >>>>> focussed >>>> on >>>>> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the > complex >>>>> primary symbolic message conveyed. >>>>> >>>>> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >>>>> instruments >>>> are >>>>> >>>>> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the >>>>> date >> of >>>>> Good Friday 1533. >>>>> >>>>> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >> instruments >>>>> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two >>>>> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >>>> misaligned >>>>> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >>>>> oversight >>>> on >>>>> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the >>>>> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >>>>> >>>>> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens >>>>> out >>> of >>>>> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >>>>> suggested >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by >>>>> the >>>> lute >>>>> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >>>>> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >>>>> >>>>> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the >>>>> lute >> is >>>>> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >> evident; >>>>> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be > viewer >>>>> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not >> ideally >>>>> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those >>>>> principles >>>> were >>>>> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >>>>> >>>>> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would >>>> appear >>>>> to be almost equal in thickness. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as >>>>> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height >>> have >>>>> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 >>> (due >>>>> to the equal fretting)? >>>>> >>>>> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the >>>>> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the >>> painter >>>>> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the >>> painter >>>>> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although >>>>> if >> we >>>>> accept >>>>> >>>>> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >>>>> (1533), >>> or >>>>> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those >>>>> in >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to >>> play. >>>>> >>>>> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >>>>> suggestion >>> by >>>>> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER >>>>> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret >>> sizes >>>>> to strings of the lute, >>>>> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >>>>> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >>>>> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >>>>> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >>>>> >>>>> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a >>>>> flaw in >>>>> my >>>>> >>>>> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, > and >>>>> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the >> bridge >>>>> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating >>>>> for >>>>> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added >> loaded >>>>> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps >> the >>>>> expected >>>>> >>>>> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the >> raising >>>>> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >>>>> >>>>> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, > particularly >>>>> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be >>>>> thinner >>>>> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest > possible >>>>> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out >> that >>>>> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been >>> chosen >>>>> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, > and >>>>> the bolder >>>>> >>>>> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast >>>>> this. >>>>> >>>>> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >> (possibly >>>>> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which >>>>> is >>>> also >>>>> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than >>>>> significant of a general practise. >>>>> >>>>> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply >>>>> show >>>> my >>>>> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as >>>>> equal; >> or >>>>> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem >>>>> (I >>>> seem >>>>> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >>>> "balbutiements". >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> ----- Message d'origine ---- >>>>> De : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >>>>> À : LuteNet list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s >>>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >>>>> >>>>> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! >>>>> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my >>>>> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or >>>>> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >>>>> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >>>>> >>>>> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using >>>>> carbon fiber. :-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>>>> bas >>>>> >>>>> sadors >>>>> >>>>> Ed Durbrow >>>>> Saitama, Japan >>>>> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> References >>>>> >>>>> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>>>> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > >
