Roman
I was not talking about equal temperament versus 4th or 6th comma, but
equal fret
thickness.
I agree with Lex that this could be to compensate for high action, but then why
the high positionining of the strings?
Regards
Anthony
----- Message d'origine ----
De : Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@verizon.net>
À : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; Martyn Hodgson
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Mar 8 février 2011, 15h 43min 36s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project
Anthony,
the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that that
familial harmony
was disrupted by a death.
And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in real
life.
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
To: "Ed Durbrow" <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; "Martyn Hodgson"
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project
> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All,
>
> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an
> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the
> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be able
to
> enlighten me?
> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite different
from
>
> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of the
> time?
>
> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much
> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered
> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the practise
> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it was
> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting.
>
> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give the
> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be almost
> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not
>necessarily
>
> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory
(doubtful?)
> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a
> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of
> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been focussed
on
> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the complex
> primary symbolic message conveyed.
>
> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the instruments
are
>
> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the date of
> Good Friday 1533.
>
> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the instruments
> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two
> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously
misaligned
> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an oversight
on
> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the
> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)"
>
> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens out of
> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is suggested
>by
>
> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by the
lute
> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)"
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html
>
> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the lute is
> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is evident;
> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be viewer
> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not ideally
> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those principles
were
> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)?
>
> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would
appear
> to be almost equal in thickness.
>
> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as
> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height
have
> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 (due
> to the equal fretting)?
>
> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the
> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the painter
> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the painter
> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although if we
> accept
>
> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time (1533), or
> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those in
>the
>
> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to play.
>
> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later suggestion by
> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER
> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret sizes
> to strings of the lute,
> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course
> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd
> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd
> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st
>
> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a flaw in
>my
>
> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, and
> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the bridge
> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating for
> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge.
>
> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added loaded
> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps the
> expected
>
> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the raising
> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting.
>
> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, particularly
> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be
>thinner
> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest possible
> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out that
> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been chosen
> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, and
> the bolder
>
> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast this.
>
> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings (possibly
> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which is
also
> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than
> significant of a general practise.
>
> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply show
my
> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as equal; or
> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem (I
seem
> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my
"balbutiements".
>
> Regards
> Anthony
>
> ----- Message d'origine ----
> De : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
> À : LuteNet list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s
> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project
>
> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow!
> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my
> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or
> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute
> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on.
>
> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using
> carbon fiber. :-)
>
>
> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
> bas
>
> sadors
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
