Hear hear! :-)
Arto
On 24/01/12 13:39, William Samson wrote:
Hi,
I haven't read Duffin's book, but I can appreciate how people imagine
they're using equal temperament when they aren't.
Good guitarists, despite the fact that their frets are evenly
spaced, will tweak their tuning before they start performing a piece,
to ensure than the more important chords and intervals in the piece
sound 'good'. Simply using an electronic tuner for the open strings
doesn't give you the pleasing quality that's provided by these final
adjustments.
Lutenists have even more latitude because of the possibility of moving
the frets around - but the fact that frets are evenly spaced doesn't
mean that you are locked into equal temperament. It would
be impossible to pin a label (quarter comma, Werkmeister whatever and
so on) on the kind of temperament you get from tuning the important
intervals to sound right, but it ain't necessarily 'equal'. It's more
of a 'season to taste' sort of temperament that depends on the ear of
the performer rather than any theory of intervals.
Interesting stuff.
Bill
From: Gordon Gregory<gor...@gordongregory.co.uk>
To: Lute List<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2012, 10:49
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Guitar temperament
Hi,
I read and enjoyed Duffin's book, particularly the discussions about
how
many 19th century tuners and performers claimed they used equal
temperament,
but actually used their own special flavours of unequal (and that
accurate
equal temperament only became common on keyboards in 1915 or so).
Where I was disappointed was his failure in my mind address the other
parts
of his title " -- ruined harmony (and why it matters)". I was hoping
for
comment and further explanation of the different characters the most
common
chords in the popular keys, e.g. why Mozart, Haydn et al used Eb and D
for
specific special effects. I felt he did not really attempt that part of
his
project.
Regards, Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Roland Hogman
Sent: 23 January 2012 18:39
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Guitar temperament
Hello!
For a nice introduction to the subject: How equal temperament ruined
harmony by Ross W. Duffin ISBN 978-0-393-33420-3 (paperback)
All the best!
Roland Hogman
2012/1/19 Stewart McCoy<[1][3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Dear Dominic,
It has to be equal temperament.
The question of temperament crops up from time to time on this
list,
and
some subscribers have expressed strong views either for or against
having fretted instruments in equal temperament. Our debate echoes
the
same debate musicians had during the 16th and 17th century.
Those in favour of unequal temperament will refer to evidence such
as:
1) 16th-century vihuela players moving the 4th fret for the sake of
pieces in flat keys, e.g. Luis Milan in 1536;
2) Christopher Simpson's _Compendium_ in 1667 describing how some
viol
players and theorbo men had an extra first fret on their
instrument.
Those in favour of equal temperament will refer to:
1) Galilei espousing equal temperament for lutes in 1582 with his
18:17
ratio for the placing of frets;
2) Praetorius stating unequivocally in 1619 that lutes and viols
were
fretted in equal temperament.
Much of the evidence may be found in Mark Lindley's excellent
_Lutes,
Viols& Temperaments_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press,
1984).
One
may fairly quibble about his dubious conclusion that Valderrabano
must
have used equal temperament (page 22), but there is a wealth of
information on the subject supporting both sides of the argument.
Your evidence derived from Bartolotti is an important contribution
to
the debate, and adds weight to the argument that baroque guitars
were
fretted in equal temperament.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-----Original Message-----
From: [2][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Dominic Robillard
Sent: 18 January 2012 23:12
Cc: lute list lute list
Subject: [LUTE] guitar temperament
Hi luters,
Bartolotti starts with a passacaille in book I. Each passacaille
modulates to a different key. Was he ahead of Wagner? Were
performers
of passacailles through all keys allowed to stop to tune, and
change
fret spacing within a work? Was that okay and normal for the
audience?
Was there an audience? Equal temperament sounds so bad, it just
can't
be.
I refuse to stop using meantone, 1/6, but I can't seem to get
passed
the 4th fret on my guitar. How many tastinos will it take? I
was
told
by pros, including Stubbs, that things get looser up there, but I
think
that is just continuo talk. Even playing Sanz doesn't pan out,
can
anyone help?
Dominic
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