Exactly Monica, but I tried to keep the same awkwardness in English as the French original conveys and did not want to brush it up s mauch ;-) !
All the best but obviously YOU understand FRench ;-), Jean-Marie -------------- >Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage as > >I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the >guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break the rules; >the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy the >ear. > >Monica > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> >To: "Shaun Ng" <shaunk...@gmail.com>; "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >Cc: "'Lute List'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM >Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> "Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne connoistreront >> pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je >> m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il >> faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout." >> Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682) >> [ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, not >> to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the >> instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ] >> >> Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not >> modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so called >> "baroque" guitar...Best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> >> PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, theorbo >> and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless... >> ;-) >> >> ------------ >> >>>Monica, >>> >>>I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows that >>>it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player. >>>Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo, >>>guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar. >>> >>>My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from historical >>>writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; after >>>all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the >>>professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had >>>multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments? >>> >>>Shaun >>> >>> >>>On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a >>>> guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, >>>> Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and >>>> indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as and >>>> when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. >>>> >>>> Please don't knock the guitar!!! >>>> >>>> Monica >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Shaun Ng >>>> To: Monica Hall >>>> Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >>>> >>>>>> Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few >>>>>> lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. >>>> >>>> >>>> What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be >>>> embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to >>>> suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo is >>>> really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French >>>> eighteenth century performance style. >>>> >>>> Campion (my translations): >>>> >>>> There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, after >>>> having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the >>>> other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying the >>>> chord, unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give a >>>> dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. >>>> >>>> The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when abbreviating >>>> the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually >>>> give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to >>>> accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time [an >>>> understanding of] the touch [of the instrument]. >>>> >>>> Shaun Ng >>>> >>>> On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of >>>>> them and >>>>> no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again >>>>> what you >>>>> actually said... >>>>> >>>>> "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >>>>> source >>>>> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >>>>> there >>>>> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >>>>> their >>>>> grandmother sneered at them)." >>>>> >>>>> There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly >>>>> capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which >>>>> Jean-Marie has >>>>> quoted Gramont says >>>>> >>>>> The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument >>>>> so >>>>> fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. >>>>> The Duke >>>>> of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as >>>>> Francisco himself. >>>>> >>>>> Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as >>>>> a professional player.. >>>>> >>>>> The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the >>>>> Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face >>>>> value. >>>>> >>>>> Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just >>>>> a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in >>>>> the 17th century as it is today. >>>>> >>>>> There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild >>>>> source >>>>> of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite >>>>> able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and >>>>> they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than >>>>> some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to >>>>> take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. >>>>> >>>>> That will have to do for tonight. >>>>> >>>>> Monica >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de> >>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -0000, Monica Hall wrote >>>>>> >>>>>> Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without >>>>>> knowing which of my posts you have read so far. >>>>>> >>>>>>> > First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >>>>>>> > source >>>>>>> > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >>>>>>> > there >>>>>>> > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >>>>>>> > their >>>>>>> > grandmother sneered at them). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in >>>>>>> the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to >>>>>>> pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted >>>>>> and >>>>>> you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do >>>>>> many other 17th century sources). >>>>>> >>>>>>> But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - >>>>>>> by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many >>>>>>> others. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. >>>>>> There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that >>>>>> instrument. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to >>>>>>> accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar gets >>>>>> treated like a "mini-lute". >>>>>> >>>>>>> There are for >>>>>>> examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates >>>>>>> a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line >>>>>>> falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension >>>>>>> is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this >>>>>>> should not be acceptable. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 >>>>>> suspension >>>>>> in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two >>>>>> voices, >>>>>> but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. >>>>>> What >>>>>> you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or >>>>>> rather, >>>>>> the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would >>>>>> result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced >>>>>> that >>>>>> this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something >>>>>> that >>>>>> just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we had >>>>>> no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and >>>>>> perceived music. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was >>>>>>> inconvenient. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take as >>>>>> a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ continuo >>>>>> instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I >>>>>> just >>>>>> follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). >>>>>> When >>>>>> switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why >>>>>> should >>>>>> I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice leading? >>>>>> With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo >>>>>> styles >>>>>> the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the >>>>>> "rules" >>>>>> of music (BC quasi beeing a "contapunto al mente") [2] >>>>>> >>>>>> There really seems to be a great divide between the so-called guitar >>>>>> world and the rest of the baroque crowd. To the later it seems pretty >>>>>> clear that BC was first and foremost a shorthand notation for >>>>>> colla-parte playing. It's rather unfortunate that modern time picked >>>>>> "basso continuo" and not Fundamentbass or "sopra la parte" or >>>>>> "partimento" (the last literally meaning "little score" or "short-hand >>>>>> score"). >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, Ralf Mattes >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] unless someone else provides a lower bass voice. >>>>>> [2] im very reluctant to use the word "rules" here. This sounds like >>>>>> something imposed from the outside. Maybe "grammar" would be the more >>>>>> fitting term. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- > >
