Dear Monica, Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I suggest. But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from the earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), Hotman (also a tiorba player d.1663), Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier d'Angleterre (d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by the late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. So it seems reasonable to me that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms is a decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I know nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc..... regards Martyn PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of these email messages?
On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall <mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated 1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed - so born 1620 or earlier. He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 recording that the possessions of a certain Italian "Miquelange" were assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant depuis neuf ans". Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to Bartolotti after that date. Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does not have to have been copied during their life times. It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very common name so open to question... We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant with those in the Goess ms. Cheers MOnica > On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > Dear Roland, > Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 > may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy > (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a > date around 1680/90 for its compilation. > The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in > this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for > solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as > famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from > time to time. > Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de > Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around > similar word association. > regards, > Martyn > > On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > <[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: > While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play > and > sound like Bartolotti. > Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who > could match the style and technique of these pieces? > r > Get [1]Outlook for Android > __________________________________________________________________ > From: [1][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall > <[3][5]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM > To: [4][6]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList > <[6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > Thanks for this. > I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for > thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. > Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any > other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let > you > know. > Cheers > Monica > > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There > is: > > > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a > bunch > > of literature which I don't know) > > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti, > Pià ¨ces > > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going > to > > find on this subject :-) > > Yuval > > > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > > Thanks Martyn > > > That's very helpful. > > > Regards > > > Monica > > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > > >> <[8][10]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Dear Monica, > > >> No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing > the > > >> other > > >> tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, > being > > >> adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the > > >> Allemande > > >> (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. > > >> The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v > (reversed > > >> folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as > does > > >> the > > >> concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to > accept > > >> these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact > that > > >> the > > >> earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have > the > > >> attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but.... > > >> regards, > > >> Martyn > > >> > > >> On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > > >> <[9][11]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >> Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes > 10 > > >> pieces > > >> for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda > on > > >> f.92r is > > >> attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what > grounds > the > > >> other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? > > >> Thanks > > >> Monica > > >> -- > > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > > >> [1][10][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> References > > >> > > >> 1. > [2][11][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. 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[14][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[17]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:[18]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:[19]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:[20]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 5. mailto:[21]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 6. mailto:[22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 7. mailto:[23]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 8. mailto:[24]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. mailto:[25]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 10. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. mailto:[28]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 13. [29]https://aka.ms/ghei36 > 14. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org 3. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 7. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 10. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org 15. https://aka.ms/ghei36 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 18. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 19. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 20. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 21. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 23. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de 24. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 25. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 28. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org 29. https://aka.ms/ghei36 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
