To be honest I don't think it is the usual classic scholarly course to attempt to date a source by its contents and style. Someone on an earlier occasion on the list commented
"As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”. Music continued to be popular and played after it was first composed. Some of Corbetta's music is found in sources copied 50 years after his death. The only way to date a manuscript with any sort of accuracy is from its bibliographical makeup and even that is not straight forward. As ever Monica > On 05 June 2020 at 11:05 Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > > > Dear Ralf, > No - I'm not suggesting your 'circular reasoning', in particular I > can't see I suggested that, as you put it, 'The music wasn't > fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from that time'. > Rather I'm adopting the usual classic scholarly course of attempting to > date a source by its contents and style. I may, of course, be > wrong!....... > Martyn > > On Friday, 5 June 2020, 09:56:53 BST, Ralf Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de> > wrote: > Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:34 CEST, Martyn Hodgson > <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb: > > Dear Monica, > > Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I > > suggest. But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from > the > > earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), > Hotman > > (also a tiorba player d.1663), Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier > d'Angleterre > > (d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by > the > > late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. > That's a classic case of circular reasoning. > -> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from > that time. > -> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains unfashionable > music ..... > > So it seems reasonable to me > > that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms > is a > > decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I > know > > nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc..... > > regards > > Martyn > > PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of > these > > email messages? > That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will send > copies > to the list as well as the original poster(s). > Cheers, RalfD > > On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall > > <[2]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is > dated > > 1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was > printed - > > so born 1620 or earlier. > > He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrà > ©tariat de > > la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 > > recording that the possessions of a certain Italian "Miquelange" > were > > assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y > servant > > depuis neuf ans". > > Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time > > previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the > > possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property > of the > > King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to > > Bartolotti after that date. > > Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have > been > > copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It > does > > not have to have been copied during their life times. > > It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo > Michel in > > all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a > very > > common name so open to question... > > We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the > > manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are > concordant > > with those in the Goess ms. > > Cheers > > MOnica > > > On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson > > <[1][3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Roland, > > > Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 > - > > 1682 > > > may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute > by > > Losy > > > (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms > > suggests a > > > date around 1680/90 for its compilation. > > > The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for > > continuo in > > > this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few > pieces > > for > > > solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as > well > > as > > > famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in > collections > > from > > > time to time. > > > Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de > Angelin de > > > Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation > > around > > > similar word association. > > > regards, > > > Martyn > > > > > > On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > > > <[2][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: > > > While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they > surely > > play > > > and > > > sound like Bartolotti. > > > Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we > know > > of, who > > > could match the style and technique of these pieces? > > > r > > > Get [1]Outlook for Android > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > From: [1][3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > <[2][4][6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf > of > > Monica Hall > > > <[3][5][7]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM > > > To: [4][6][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > <[5][7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; > > LuteList > > > <[6][8][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > > > Thanks for this. > > > I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons > for > > > thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. > > > Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to > check > > any > > > other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I > will > > let > > > you > > > know. > > > Cheers > > > Monica > > > > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the > literature? > > There > > > is: > > > > > > > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but > he > > gives a > > > bunch > > > > of literature which I don't know) > > > > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. > > 121-125 (he > > > > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, > but > > I > > > > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a > piece > > by > > > > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as > > Bartolotti as > > > > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > > > > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: à ¢A. M. > > Bartolotti, > > > Pià ¨ces > > > > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth > to > > check! > > > > > > > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what > you're > > going > > > to > > > > find on this subject :-) > > > > Yuval > > > > > > > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > > > > Thanks Martyn > > > > > That's very helpful. > > > > > Regards > > > > > Monica > > > > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > > > > >> <[8][10][12]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Monica, > > > > >> No - I don't know if there are any grounds for > > attributing > > > the > > > > >> other > > > > >> tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, > of > > course, > > > being > > > > >> adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the > attribution of > > the > > > > >> Allemande > > > > >> (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not > 92r. > > > > >> The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to > 87v > > > (reversed > > > > >> folios) seems stylistically very close to the > Allemanda, > > as > > > does > > > > >> the > > > > >> concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be > > happy to > > > accept > > > > >> these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. > The > > fact > > > that > > > > >> the > > > > >> earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do > not > > have > > > the > > > > >> attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, > > but.... > > > > >> regards, > > > > >> Martyn > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > > > > >> <[9][11][13]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > > >> Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in > Vienna > > includes > > > 10 > > > > >> pieces > > > > >> for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The > > Allemanda > > > on > > > > >> f.92r is > > > > >> attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on > what > > > grounds > > > the > > > > >> other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? > > > > >> Thanks > > > > >> Monica > > > > >> -- > > > > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > >> > > > [1][10][12][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> > > > > >> References > > > > >> > > > > >> 1. > > > > [2][11][13][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >> > > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual > or > > entity > > > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that > is > > > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under > > applicable > > > law. If the reader of this message is not the intended > > recipient, or > > > the employee or agent responsible for delivering the > message to > > the > > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > > dissemination, > > > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > > > prohibited. > > > If you have received this communication in error, please > notify > > us > > > immediately by telephone and return the original message to > us > > at > > > [12][14][16]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- > > > References > > > 1. [13][15][17]https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > > 2. > > [14][16][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. mailto:[17][19]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 2. mailto:[18][20]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 3. mailto:[19][21]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 4. mailto:[20][22]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > > 5. mailto:[21][23]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > > 6. mailto:[22][24]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 7. mailto:[23][25]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > > 8. mailto:[24][26]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 9. mailto:[25][27]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 10. > [26][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 11. > [27][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 12. mailto:[28][30]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > > > 13. [29][31]https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > > 14. > [30][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:[33]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 2. mailto:[34]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > > 3. mailto:[35]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 4. mailto:[36]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 5. mailto:[37]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 6. mailto:[38]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 7. mailto:[39]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 8. mailto:[40]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 9. mailto:[41]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 10. mailto:[42]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 11. mailto:[43]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 12. [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 13. [45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 14. mailto:[46]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > > 15. [47]https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > 16. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 17. mailto:[49]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 18. mailto:[50]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 19. mailto:[51]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 20. mailto:[52]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 21. mailto:[53]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 22. mailto:[54]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 23. mailto:[55]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > 24. mailto:[56]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 25. mailto:[57]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > 26. [58]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 27. [59]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 28. mailto:[60]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > > 29. [61]https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > 30. [62]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > Ralf Mattes > Hochschule für Musik Freiburg > Projektleitung HISinOne > Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg > [63]http://www.mh-freiburg.de > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 5. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 7. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 8. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 9. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 11. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 12. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 13. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 17. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 19. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 20. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 21. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 22. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 23. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 24. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 25. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 26. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 27. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 30. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 31. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > 32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 33. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 34. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 35. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 36. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 37. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 38. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 39. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 40. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 41. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 42. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 43. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 46. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 47. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 49. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 50. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 51. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 52. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 53. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 54. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 55. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > 56. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 57. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 58. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 59. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 60. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org > 61. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > 62. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 63. http://www.mh-freiburg.de/ >
