On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:16:30PM +0000, Guenter Milde wrote:
> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 07:05:29PM +0000, Guenter Milde wrote:
> >> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
>
> >> > I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
> >> > This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.
>
> >> However, it was inconsistent. The same font dialog uses [Default] when
> >> LyX is not going to select any font. Also the internal name is
> >> "default".
>
> > It is because the default encoding has been T1 since ever. I also think
> > that it is unfortunate that selecting everything to be default, instead
> > one finds that lyx is not producing a pristine latex file such as
> > \documentclass{article}
> > \begin{document}
> > \end{document}
> > but this is historical. Each program has his quirks, and this one has
> > been there since the beginning.
>
> Until 2008, "default" meant unequivocally "pristine latex".
> LyX provided only a LyX-wide setting
> Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX>Use_LaTeX_font_encoding. Allowed values
> were a comma-separted list of font encodings or the special value
> "default" for "don't load fontenc".
>
> Confusion started, when per-document fontenc setting was added in
> [df329341a/lyxgit] to fix bug #5730. As the LyX-wide setting was kept, we
> ended up with two defaults: the LyX-wide setting and the LaTeX (or
> documentclass) default.
>
> Unfortunatly, the GUI name "Default" was chosen for the LyX-wide default.
> Since then, selecting "Default" in the font encoding GUI inserts
> additional code and usually leads to a font encoding differing from the
> document class default.
>
> > This is something that one gets accustomed to. Expert users know how to
> > deal with it,
>
> Even experts and developers get this wrong:
>
> E.g. Ticket #7334 "bitmapped fonts are still default" was closed as "wontfix"
> with the comment
>
> we have the policy to not alter the class defaults (by default).
>
> However, the problem is actually caused by the font encoding deviating from
> the class default. Sticking to the policy would have solved it (but
> created others).
>
> > while novices don't mind and only want something that
> > works and looks good.
>
> Documents with LyX's default settings still use bitmap fonts and don't
> look good (unless you installed CM-Super).
>
> ...
>
> > Given what said above, having "LyX Default" instead of simply
> > "Default" may be Ok (to differentiate from a consistency point of
> > view), but another default (Class default) without any classification
> > can be confusing.
>
> > So, it would be better to add "(no fontenc)", but then I still think
> > that "None (no fontenc)" is better and doesn't need to be deciphered
> > because it has always been like that.
>
> I prefer keeping "Default" in both GUI names, because the first ensures
> compatiblity with the current naming and the second with the "Default"s
> in the lines below. In a complex situation, confused is better than
> misled.
>
> > Hence, old users know what it means,
>
> My experience is that many old users got it wrong all the time...
>
> > while new users will learn its meaning. For them, having "Class
> > default" is not any clear and more confusing, IMHO.
>
> This was Jürgens choice, my preference is "LaTeX Default" with a tooltip:
>
> Use the documentclass' default encoding, don't load the fontspec package
>
> Jürgen pointed out, that "no fontenc" may be misleading, as fontenc
> could be loaded by a package or the document class. I could live with
> "LaTeX Default (no fontenc)" as a pragmatic way to tell users where to
> click to avoid fontenc loading by LyX.
Thanks for this detailed explanation. It makes clearer to me your
rationale. Now I agree with you and make an even more radical proposal.
Let's leave [Default] as the default, but now [Default] means
"LaTeX default", i.e., no fontenc. In other words we rename
"None (no fontenc)" to "Default" and make it the default (sorry for the
pun). Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value specified
in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX). Of course, this means that a
lyx2lyx conversion has to be added, so that documents produced with
previous versions have their [Default] changed to [LyX Default].
In this way, new documents get no fontenc loading by default and
old documents continue working as usual. Who likes to always load
fontenc, can open Document->Settings, select [LyX Default] and
"Save as Document Defaults" their choice.
This is the cleanest way to proceed, IMHO.
--
Enrico
