On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 08:56:15AM +0000, Pavel Sanda wrote: > I agree that the language of the dialog can be a problem. But there is no rush > and if you can't stand for the version with english dialog, we can advertise > the installer once you get the translations you need and are happy with the > state of the installer.
+1
> Generally speaking - apart from your mom, which might indeed be better served
> without additional info, there is also crowd of people who go mad when
> software
> contain hidden "kits" which were nowhere mentioned.
> One never knows what the rest of MikTeX is used on the system and I do not buy
> that because of people who are technically less capable, we should abandon the
> people, who _are_ capable to comprehend what "forced update of MikTeX" means.
I think I differ from Pavel (and Richard?) perhaps in that my main
argument is actually focused on the average Windows user of LyX. I agree
that experienced users would also be affected, and perhaps might be the
most upset and frustrated because they could interpret it as a basic
principle of software has been violated. In some sense though, I agree
with Uwe that in practice experienced users would be able to recover and
figure out a way to fix their problem. I do not take lightly the
short-run anger and problems that such experienced users would have: for
example, imagine an experienced user needs to submit a PDF within 30
minutes to meet a deadline. There is not enough time to fix the problem,
even if they know how to fix it.
It is just that I think we would cause even *worse* potential problems
for the average user.
It is possible that everyone (e.g. Pavel, Richard, Uwe, and Benedict,
who just responded on lyx-users [1]) disagree with me on this, but I
would still like to explain my argument.
There are more and more average Windows users who use LaTeX. LaTeX is
becoming more popular, and a (good, in my opinion) result of this is
that more non-technical people are starting to use LaTeX. LaTeX is more
commonly required by some undergraduate classes, for example. e.g., in
some math classes students are either given a 10 minute introduction by
a teaching assistant, or instead just given a URL to an introduction to
LaTeX, and told that they must turn their homework in using LaTeX. Just
as Uwe gave a good use case about his mom, I will provide a couple of
examples: suppose that a student wrote their homework in LaTeX and needs
to turn it in in a couple of hours. They hear from another student that
this program called LyX can be an easier way to write their homework so
they install LyX, but perhaps LyX causes their homework to not compile
anymore. I do not think the teacher will accept the argument that
"LyX ate my homework" [2]. I do not think this situation is *likely*,
but I think it is *possible*, and I think that a dialog is more likely
to save such a user from a problem than it is to confuse or hurt a user.
The above argument depends on my position that a MiKTeX update can cause
problems. Uwe explained why he disagrees with this because bugs
introduced in a LaTeX package update would be quickly fixed because many
people would experience them. But I think that is not always the case
because some bugs only show up with different combinations of packages
used. In the above case of the math student, I don't think there is a
high chance of a problem because probably the student is using simple
and common packages (although who knows what they copied from some
website). Even in this case though, I've seen error messages about e.g.
simple commands being deprecated, such as \rm, which needs to be
replaced with \textrm.
Another example is that some coauthors who use LaTeX might convince
another coauthor to use LaTeX. That coauthor might not know LaTeX at
all, but use it by just editing the text of the other coauthors.
Installing LyX and hence updating MiKTeX could break that user's setup.
I've actually seen this happen from an updated MiKTeX, and the user
swore never to use LaTeX again ("I can't believe that an update of LaTeX
[sic] caused my document not to convert [sic] to PDF. I'm never using
LaTeX again."). That user was not a LyX user, and I am not sure that a
dialog in LyX would have saved that user from that pain, but I think
that there's a higher chance it would have saved that user than hurt
that user.
I don't know if many on this list follow the questions on
tex.stackexchange.com [3], but there are *a lot* of questions on LaTeX
by very inexperienced users. It is not only power users that use LaTeX
outside of LyX.
In summary, my line of logic goes as follows:
1. Experienced users are more likely to have problems than
average users because they are more likely to use LaTeX outside of
LyX...
2. ... but there are many average users who use LaTeX outside of LyX...
2. ... and if an average user runs into a problem, it is a lot worse for
them because they will have a lot more trouble to fix it.
I think that the "cost" of a well-thought-out dialog is small to both
experienced users and average uses. I think this is the main point of
disagreement. Uwe thinks that an average user might cancel the dialog
because they are confused or don't understand English. Pavel addressed
the English issue above. And as for being confused, I agree with
Richard's point (argued before) that if the user does cancel the
installation, it is a no-op.
> Anyway, I hope we can still make some compromise here. I think Scott is trying
> hard to help and come up with some message which would be comprehensible to an
> average user and your input would be surely welcome.
Indeed. I'm very happy that we are continuing this discussion. We are
still using logic, combined with examples (e.g. Uwe's example of his
Mom), and trying to understand each other's arguments. This is not a fun
debate and we are all tired, but we must continue. Although it might
take time, I really hope that we can come to a solution. It would be a
sad day for users and for developers if this escalated more and we
abandoned the goal of providing Windows binaries on the website. I will
not abandon that goal. From what I see, we are still working towards a
solution. Thank you to all for participating in this issue that is
frustrating for everyone.
> Alse we can always add something like "If you don't know what the message
> above
> exactly means you probably want to press 'Yes'" as I sometimes saw on other
> installers.
I think this could be a good idea.
Scott
[1]
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid&q=CAD%2Bmzozah_2ETEjFpvXQpNCE6qeiW8hRYAE1OPvu89%3DMZFoUAw%40mail.gmail.com
[2]
I'm curious: do other languages have a similar expression?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dog_ate_my_homework
[3]
I wish actually more people would follow the [lyx] tag questions.
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