Lots of good discussion, but... Have those who are uncomfortable about this contacted both of their Senators?
David Dudine > From: Ward Oldham <woldham at insightbb.com> > Reply-To: macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:38:55 -0500 > To: MUG <macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu> > Subject: Re: MacGroup: Homeland Security bill > > Hey Jerry and all, > > None of this is that simple! But even in this short thread, I think we can > all appreciate the difficulties the folks in Washington are having trying to > figure this out. > > Ward > > 11/19/02 3:02 PM, "Jerry Yeager" <jerry at browseryshop.com> wrote: > >> If it were only that simple Ward. It is not. >> >> Uh folks keep in mind most of the CIA's budget is classified. The public >> part that is available is for things like paper clips, etc. It will not >> take long before the $200 million that we know about goes to the paper >> clip budget and then who knows where the part we are not told about >> (it's "classified") goes? >> >> This type of information should not be in the hands of the government. >> Our government has shown that it will abuse the information it already >> collects (employees at the IRS use tax return information for their own >> gain, etc. there are many mis-uses on record that can be listed) >> regardless of which major party is in office. I find it very odd that >> right now the only folks who seem to be trying the protect American >> ideals and citizens is the CIA (folks we hire to spy on others). >> >> Have you forgotten that the Nazi party began collecting this type of >> information about citizens before they began doing what they did? >> >> The needs of the many are for the freedoms that we have had. The needs >> ot the few are to control those freedoms so that they can stay in power. >> I am very sure that the folks that put the list of freedoms together for >> us knew what they were doing. After all, they got to see the horror of a >> prolonged war on AMERICAN soil first hand. Was it not that very gang >> that said something along the lines of "those that would trade freedom >> for security deserve neither". I think they fully understood what is at >> stake here. >> >> Giving the government this power will not protect us more. (As the NRA >> likes to say, 'we already have existing laws that deal with this, why do >> we need more?'). All this will do is open a new threat to us, this one >> from within. >> >> >> Jerry >> >> On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 02:18 PM, Ward Oldham wrote: >> >>> Well, having a history on this listserve of being potentially the most >>> offensive when it comes to political issues, I should just shut >>> up . . . But >>> I can't! >>> >>> I cherish my privacy more than the average bear. I don't want anybody >>> reading my mail, email, knowing my finances, seeing my tax return. When >>> people ask how much I make because they need the info. for their >>> application >>> or survey, I tell them it's none of their business! >>> >>> With that said, we probably all recognize that our world will never be >>> the >>> same. We haven't had a threat in our community, yet. Because of that, >>> there >>> will be many folks out there who are against any change at all because >>> it >>> infringes upon their constitutional rights. I feel the same way. The >>> bottom line is it hasn't hit close enough to home yet for us to feel the >>> sting and why change the rules if we haven't been hurt. >>> >>> I always think back to an old Star Trek movie where Spock is dying >>> because >>> he sacrificed himself to save the ship and the crew. It depicted the >>> philosophy "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." >>> >>> The time may be growing near when we have to be willing to sacrifice a >>> little of our privacy in an effort to prevent potential harm that may >>> affect >>> many others than just ourselves. >>> >>> Ward Oldham >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/19/02 12:00 PM, "David Dudine" <ddudine at psci.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Group, >>>> >>>> Lee has given me permission to post this from conservative William >>>> Safire. >>>> >>>> If you do not want the government watching your internet activity and >>>> reading your email, you should contact your Senators IMMEDIATELY and >>>> voice >>>> your opposition. It is being rammed through by Bush as you read this. >>>> >>>> David Dudine >>>> >>>> .......................... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New York Times, November 14, 2002: Opinion >>>> >>>> You Are a Suspect >>>> >>>> By WILLIAM SAFIRE >>>> >>>> >>>> WASHINGTON ? If the Homeland Security Act is not amended before >>>> passage, >>>> here is what will happen to you: >>>> >>>> Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine >>>> subscription you >>>> buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and >>>> e-mail >>>> you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank >>>> deposit >>>> you make, every trip you book and every event you attend ? all these >>>> transactions and communications will go into what the Defense >>>> Department >>>> describes as "a virtual, centralized grand database." >>>> >>>> To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial >>>> sources, >>>> add every piece of information that government has about you ? passport >>>> application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and >>>> divorce >>>> records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your lifetime >>>> paper >>>> trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance ? and you have the >>>> supersnoop's dream: a "Total Information Awareness" about every U.S. >>>> citizen. >>>> >>>> This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will happen to >>>> your >>>> personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter gets the >>>> unprecedented power he seeks. >>>> >>>> Remember Poindexter? Brilliant man, first in his class at the Naval >>>> Academy, later earned a doctorate in physics, rose to national security >>>> adviser under President Ronald Reagan. He had this brilliant idea of >>>> secretly selling missiles to Iran to pay ransom for hostages, and with >>>> the >>>> illicit proceeds to illegally support contras in Nicaragua. >>>> >>>> A jury convicted Poindexter in 1990 on five felony counts of misleading >>>> Congress and making false statements, but an appeals court overturned >>>> the >>>> verdict because Congress had given him immunity for his testimony. He >>>> famously asserted, "The buck stops here," arguing that the White House >>>> staff, and not the president, was responsible for fateful decisions >>>> that >>>> might prove embarrassing. >>>> >>>> This ring-knocking master of deceit is back again with a plan even more >>>> scandalous than Iran-contra. He heads the "Information Awareness >>>> Office" in >>>> the otherwise excellent Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, >>>> which >>>> spawned the Internet and stealth aircraft technology. Poindexter is now >>>> realizing his 20-year dream: getting the "data-mining" power to snoop >>>> on >>>> every public and private act of every American. >>>> >>>> Even the hastily passed U.S.A. Patriot Act, which widened the scope of >>>> the >>>> Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and weakened 15 privacy laws, >>>> raised >>>> requirements for the government to report secret eavesdropping to >>>> Congress >>>> and the courts. But Poindexter's assault on individual privacy rides >>>> roughshod over such oversight. >>>> >>>> He is determined to break down the wall between commercial snooping and >>>> secret government intrusion. The disgraced admiral dismisses such >>>> necessary >>>> differentiation as bureaucratic "stovepiping." And he has been given a >>>> $200 >>>> million budget to create computer dossiers on 300 million Americans. >>>> >>>> When George W. Bush was running for president, he stood foursquare in >>>> defense of each person's medical, financial and communications >>>> privacy. But >>>> Poindexter, whose contempt for the restraints of oversight drew the >>>> Reagan >>>> administration into its most serious blunder, is still operating on the >>>> presumption that on such a sweeping theft of privacy rights, the buck >>>> ends >>>> with him and not with the president. >>>> >>>> This time, however, he has been seizing power in the open. In the past >>>> week >>>> John Markoff of The Times, followed by Robert O'Harrow of The >>>> Washington >>>> Post, have revealed the extent of Poindexter's operation, but >>>> editorialists >>>> have not grasped its undermining of the Freedom of Information Act. >>>> >>>> Political awareness can overcome "Total Information Awareness," the >>>> combined force of commercial and government snooping. In a similar >>>> overreach, Attorney General Ashcroft tried his Terrorism Information >>>> and >>>> Prevention System (TIPS), but public outrage at the use of gossips and >>>> postal workers as snoops caused the House to shoot it down. The Senate >>>> should now do the same to this other exploitation of fear. >>>> >>>> The Latin motto over Poindexter"s new Pentagon office reads "Scientia >>>> Est >>>> Potentia" ? "knowledge is power." Exactly: the government's infinite >>>> knowledge about you is its power over you. "We're just as concerned as >>>> the >>>> next person with protecting privacy," this brilliant mind blandly >>>> assured >>>> The Post. A jury found he spoke falsely before. >>>> >>>> .???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))>< ,.???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> >>>> ?.???`?..???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.?.?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> >>>> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))>< .???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> ?.???`?..???`?.? >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------- >>>> Introducing NetZero Long Distance >>>> 1st month Free! >>>> Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 >>>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of >>>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. >>>> >>> >>> >>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 >>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of >>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 >> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of >> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. >> > > > The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 > For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of > activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. > The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
