Hello Bernie,
The best way to stay informed is to read the actual legislation for your
self.
In this case what the hoopla is about is that the legislation is
removing the requirements of having the courts say if okay to spy on
you. The "powers that be" will only have to suspect you to begin spying
on you. In addition, they will be able to routinely gather information
on all people, citizen or otherwise, and do what they will with it. If
that is not bad enough, one of the folks they are putting in charge of
the information is Poindexter. You may not remember much about him, but
he committed treason against the US. Putting him in charge of this is on
par with putting a child molester in charge of day care centers.
Jerry
On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 02:49 PM, Bernard A Griffis wrote:
> I contacted both of mine and thanked them for voting for the Homeland
> Security
> bill. I'm not equal to most of you when it comes to the new world of
> networking,
> email and the possibilities, but I do know the courts will require a
> court order
> to spy on me and prove that I am a threat to the USA to get this order.
> I can't
> walk in your shoes, but I trust the courts more than I do these chat
> rooms.
> B Griffis
>
> David Dudine wrote:
>
>> Lots of good discussion, but...
>>
>> Have those who are uncomfortable about this contacted both of their
>> Senators?
>>
>> David Dudine
>>
>>> From: Ward Oldham <woldham at insightbb.com>
>>> Reply-To: macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu
>>> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:38:55 -0500
>>> To: MUG <macgroup at erdos.math.louisville.edu>
>>> Subject: Re: MacGroup: Homeland Security bill
>>>
>>> Hey Jerry and all,
>>>
>>> None of this is that simple! But even in this short thread, I think
>>> we can
>>> all appreciate the difficulties the folks in Washington are having
>>> trying to
>>> figure this out.
>>>
>>> Ward
>>>
>>> 11/19/02 3:02 PM, "Jerry Yeager" <jerry at browseryshop.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If it were only that simple Ward. It is not.
>>>>
>>>> Uh folks keep in mind most of the CIA's budget is classified. The
>>>> public
>>>> part that is available is for things like paper clips, etc. It will
>>>> not
>>>> take long before the $200 million that we know about goes to the
>>>> paper
>>>> clip budget and then who knows where the part we are not told about
>>>> (it's "classified") goes?
>>>>
>>>> This type of information should not be in the hands of the
>>>> government.
>>>> Our government has shown that it will abuse the information it
>>>> already
>>>> collects (employees at the IRS use tax return information for their
>>>> own
>>>> gain, etc. there are many mis-uses on record that can be listed)
>>>> regardless of which major party is in office. I find it very odd that
>>>> right now the only folks who seem to be trying the protect American
>>>> ideals and citizens is the CIA (folks we hire to spy on others).
>>>>
>>>> Have you forgotten that the Nazi party began collecting this type of
>>>> information about citizens before they began doing what they did?
>>>>
>>>> The needs of the many are for the freedoms that we have had. The
>>>> needs
>>>> ot the few are to control those freedoms so that they can stay in
>>>> power.
>>>> I am very sure that the folks that put the list of freedoms together
>>>> for
>>>> us knew what they were doing. After all, they got to see the horror
>>>> of a
>>>> prolonged war on AMERICAN soil first hand. Was it not that very gang
>>>> that said something along the lines of "those that would trade
>>>> freedom
>>>> for security deserve neither". I think they fully understood what is
>>>> at
>>>> stake here.
>>>>
>>>> Giving the government this power will not protect us more. (As the
>>>> NRA
>>>> likes to say, 'we already have existing laws that deal with this,
>>>> why do
>>>> we need more?'). All this will do is open a new threat to us, this
>>>> one
>>>> from within.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 02:18 PM, Ward Oldham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, having a history on this listserve of being potentially the
>>>>> most
>>>>> offensive when it comes to political issues, I should just shut
>>>>> up . . . But
>>>>> I can't!
>>>>>
>>>>> I cherish my privacy more than the average bear. I don't want
>>>>> anybody
>>>>> reading my mail, email, knowing my finances, seeing my tax return.
>>>>> When
>>>>> people ask how much I make because they need the info. for their
>>>>> application
>>>>> or survey, I tell them it's none of their business!
>>>>>
>>>>> With that said, we probably all recognize that our world will never
>>>>> be
>>>>> the
>>>>> same. We haven't had a threat in our community, yet. Because of
>>>>> that,
>>>>> there
>>>>> will be many folks out there who are against any change at all
>>>>> because
>>>>> it
>>>>> infringes upon their constitutional rights. I feel the same way.
>>>>> The
>>>>> bottom line is it hasn't hit close enough to home yet for us to
>>>>> feel the
>>>>> sting and why change the rules if we haven't been hurt.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always think back to an old Star Trek movie where Spock is dying
>>>>> because
>>>>> he sacrificed himself to save the ship and the crew. It depicted
>>>>> the
>>>>> philosophy "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
>>>>>
>>>>> The time may be growing near when we have to be willing to
>>>>> sacrifice a
>>>>> little of our privacy in an effort to prevent potential harm that
>>>>> may
>>>>> affect
>>>>> many others than just ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ward Oldham
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/19/02 12:00 PM, "David Dudine" <ddudine at psci.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Group,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lee has given me permission to post this from conservative William
>>>>>> Safire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you do not want the government watching your internet activity
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> reading your email, you should contact your Senators IMMEDIATELY
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> voice
>>>>>> your opposition. It is being rammed through by Bush as you read
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Dudine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ..........................
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New York Times, November 14, 2002: Opinion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You Are a Suspect
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By WILLIAM SAFIRE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WASHINGTON ? If the Homeland Security Act is not amended before
>>>>>> passage,
>>>>>> here is what will happen to you:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine
>>>>>> subscription you
>>>>>> buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and
>>>>>> e-mail
>>>>>> you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank
>>>>>> deposit
>>>>>> you make, every trip you book and every event you attend ? all
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> transactions and communications will go into what the Defense
>>>>>> Department
>>>>>> describes as "a virtual, centralized grand database."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial
>>>>>> sources,
>>>>>> add every piece of information that government has about you ?
>>>>>> passport
>>>>>> application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and
>>>>>> divorce
>>>>>> records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your
>>>>>> lifetime
>>>>>> paper
>>>>>> trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance ? and you have the
>>>>>> supersnoop's dream: a "Total Information Awareness" about every
>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>> citizen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will
>>>>>> happen to
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter gets the
>>>>>> unprecedented power he seeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember Poindexter? Brilliant man, first in his class at the Naval
>>>>>> Academy, later earned a doctorate in physics, rose to national
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> adviser under President Ronald Reagan. He had this brilliant idea
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> secretly selling missiles to Iran to pay ransom for hostages, and
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> illicit proceeds to illegally support contras in Nicaragua.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A jury convicted Poindexter in 1990 on five felony counts of
>>>>>> misleading
>>>>>> Congress and making false statements, but an appeals court
>>>>>> overturned
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> verdict because Congress had given him immunity for his testimony.
>>>>>> He
>>>>>> famously asserted, "The buck stops here," arguing that the White
>>>>>> House
>>>>>> staff, and not the president, was responsible for fateful decisions
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> might prove embarrassing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This ring-knocking master of deceit is back again with a plan even
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> scandalous than Iran-contra. He heads the "Information Awareness
>>>>>> Office" in
>>>>>> the otherwise excellent Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> spawned the Internet and stealth aircraft technology. Poindexter
>>>>>> is now
>>>>>> realizing his 20-year dream: getting the "data-mining" power to
>>>>>> snoop
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> every public and private act of every American.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even the hastily passed U.S.A. Patriot Act, which widened the
>>>>>> scope of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and weakened 15 privacy laws,
>>>>>> raised
>>>>>> requirements for the government to report secret eavesdropping to
>>>>>> Congress
>>>>>> and the courts. But Poindexter's assault on individual privacy
>>>>>> rides
>>>>>> roughshod over such oversight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is determined to break down the wall between commercial
>>>>>> snooping and
>>>>>> secret government intrusion. The disgraced admiral dismisses such
>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>> differentiation as bureaucratic "stovepiping." And he has been
>>>>>> given a
>>>>>> $200
>>>>>> million budget to create computer dossiers on 300 million
>>>>>> Americans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When George W. Bush was running for president, he stood foursquare
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> defense of each person's medical, financial and communications
>>>>>> privacy. But
>>>>>> Poindexter, whose contempt for the restraints of oversight drew the
>>>>>> Reagan
>>>>>> administration into its most serious blunder, is still operating
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> presumption that on such a sweeping theft of privacy rights, the
>>>>>> buck
>>>>>> ends
>>>>>> with him and not with the president.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This time, however, he has been seizing power in the open. In the
>>>>>> past
>>>>>> week
>>>>>> John Markoff of The Times, followed by Robert O'Harrow of The
>>>>>> Washington
>>>>>> Post, have revealed the extent of Poindexter's operation, but
>>>>>> editorialists
>>>>>> have not grasped its undermining of the Freedom of Information Act.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Political awareness can overcome "Total Information Awareness," the
>>>>>> combined force of commercial and government snooping. In a similar
>>>>>> overreach, Attorney General Ashcroft tried his Terrorism
>>>>>> Information
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Prevention System (TIPS), but public outrage at the use of gossips
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> postal workers as snoops caused the House to shoot it down. The
>>>>>> Senate
>>>>>> should now do the same to this other exploitation of fear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Latin motto over Poindexter"s new Pentagon office reads
>>>>>> "Scientia
>>>>>> Est
>>>>>> Potentia" ? "knowledge is power." Exactly: the government's
>>>>>> infinite
>>>>>> knowledge about you is its power over you. "We're just as
>>>>>> concerned as
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> next person with protecting privacy," this brilliant mind blandly
>>>>>> assured
>>>>>> The Post. A jury found he spoke falsely before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))><
>>>>>> ,.???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?>
>>>>>> ?.???`?..???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.?.?.?.???`?.? ><((((?>
>>>>>> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))>< .???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?>
>>>>>> ?.???`?..???`?.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>>>>> 1st month Free!
>>>>>> Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be
>>>>>> November 26
>>>>>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
>>>>>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be
>>>>> November 26
>>>>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
>>>>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November
>>>> 26
>>>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
>>>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November
>>> 26
>>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
>>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>>>
>>
>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26
>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>
>
> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26
> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
>
>
>
>
The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26
For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of
activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
