Buddy, good points and yeah, I use what it takes to get the job done. Of course my stronger dislike for windows typically shows itself after Outlook has crashed several times or that damned windows screen reader has decided to stop communicating with me. :) Hey for now I have some courses that require windows since the good folks that developed Unison haven't seen fit to getting html support as I have been asking for. :) So, your dead on my man. On Aug 30, 2009, at 12:39 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> > I agree: choice is not a bad thing. I use all three (Windows, Mac, and > GNU/Linux) for different things. While my main fun downtime machine is > a Mac, I definitely still use Windows for some things and in some > situations. I also have a couple of things I do where GNU/Linux is the > best choice. It's all good, and I say if it works for you, use it and > be productive. If something else works for you, use that. > > While I've seen some Windows is the antichrist stuff here and on the > GNU/Linux lists, I've seen similar, though different, things on the > Windows side, mostly to do with people thinking that these are not > viable alternatives at all, or not useful, or that those of us who use > non-Windows alternatives are only doing so out of some cultish need to > not use Microsoft products simply for the fact that they come from > Microsoft. While I don't deny there is sometimes a certain amount of > that latter attitude with some of us, it's no different, and no less > divisive, than the "Windows is the antichrist" attitude. It just > manifests itself differently. > -- > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA > Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY > > > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 3:39 AM, James & Nash wrote: > >> >> Donnna, I could not have said it better myself. No, Windows is not >> the >> darkside and I feel I have to say that whenever I listen to Windows >> or >> Windows AT related podcasts which I do regularly, I have never - as >> far as i >> can remember heard these folks disparage Apple's efforts. There are >> of >> course those in the AT and Windows communities who have dismissed >> the Mac >> out of hand, but these narrow minded folks are few and far between. >> >> I think we can all agree that people should use what works for them >> - or >> what works for them in a given situation - whether that be Linux, >> Mac or >> Windows is irrelevant. Yes, Apple has made great steps forward in the >> accessibility of Mac OS X, Windows AT developers and Microsoft have >> also >> done the same for Windows as have Linux folks. As you said, there are >> definite weaknesses to both - indeeed all the OS's as there are >> definite >> advantages. None of these operating systems are in any way perfect >> but we >> should respect everyone and their choice. >> >> I am not criticizing anyone - personally, I think it's a good thing >> that >> Apple have added the ability for people to decide on how they want >> to edit >> as well as other things. It is always nice and convenient to have >> options >> and multiple ways of doing things. >> >> Take care all >> >> James >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Donna Goodin" <goodi...@msu.edu> >> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:06 AM >> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? >> >> >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have to support Rich here. The attitude displayed by many Mac >>> users >>> toward Windows, and toward Windows users who are doing their best >>> to learn >>> the Mac OS is frankly despicable. Many mac users--definitely not >>> all--are >>> nothing more than a bunch of narrow-minded snobs. Windows is not >>> "the >>> dark >>> side". It is a viable choice, perhaps a better choice for some >>> people. >>> JAWS and Windows worked very well for me for nearly 20 years. I am >>> only >>> here because I want to support Apple's efforts, not because I >>> believe >>> Windows or JAWS to be the devil incarnate. Yes, editing is >>> different. >>> Those who prefer editing in Windows are not wrong, they just prefer >>> something different. They are entitled to that preference, just as >>> all on >>> this list are entitled to their preference for the Mac. If Apple >>> implements >>> some choices to facilitate transition from Windows, there's nothing >>> wrong >>> with that. No one has to use it unless they want to. >>> >>> Personally, I think it's great that there are multiple alternatives >>> now >>> available for blind users. Yes, what Apple has done for >>> accessibility is >>> tremendous. That said, I just applied for a job at a place where >>> they >>> pretty much come out and tell you that if you choose to use a Mac, >>> you >>> won't >>> be able to utilize all of their materials. So, if I get that >>> position, >>> I'll >>> be using Windows for all things work-related. I therefore hope that >>> Windows >>> continues to be a viable option for blind users. The best possible >>> scenario >>> for us is to have as many options as possible, so that each of us >>> can >>> decide >>> which is the best fit for us and for our immediate needs. The Mac >>> has >>> many >>> things to recommend it. But you all who choose to use it, are in >>> no way >>> superior to anyone else, and you have no right to disdain others who >>> either >>> choose the Windows option, or are willing to point out the Mac's >>> weaknesses. >>> And yes, the Mac does have very definite weaknesses, as does >>> Windows. >>> >>> Why can't we all just be supportive and respectful of one >>> another? I >>> think >>> the thing I find saddest about this whole movement toward the Mac, >>> is the >>> way it seems to polarize everyone. Let's just support each >>> person's >>> right >>> to find what works best for them and be happy about that. >>> >>> Donna >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich Ring >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:16 PM >>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>> >>>> >>>> With all respect, I am sure there was a time when you were a >>>> beginner. >>>> I am >>>> an extremely competent Windows user. This doesn't in and of itself >>>> make me >>>> the spawn of Satan, it is simply a statement concerning my current >>>> technological status. One of the things that has kept me from >>>> purchasing a >>>> Mac until today is the condescending manner in which some >>>> (certainly >>>> not >>>> all) Mac users treat those of us who are investigating this >>>> pltform who >>>> have >>>> been Windows users. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Marie Howarth" <marie.jane2...@gmail.com> >>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:45 PM >>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it >>>> is >>>> meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here >>>> now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need >>>> their >>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. >>>> as I >>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >>>> >>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people >>>> who >>>>> bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I >>>>> believe >>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or >>>>> some >>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for >>>>> those >>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this >>>>> point >>>>> because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I >>>>> see >>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>>>> whatever >>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there >>>>> are >>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It >>>>> is >>>> an >>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have >>>>> stated >>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is >>>>> not a >>>>> standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously >>>>> didn't >>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >>>>> option. >>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there >>>>>> are >>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, >>>>>> but >>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get >>>>>> to a >>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>>>> >>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way >>>>>> shorter >>>>>> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to >>>>>> apply >>>>>> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that >>>>>> they're >>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to >>>>>> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers >>>>>> who >>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled >>>>>> email >>>>>> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their >>>>>> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference >>>>>> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions >>>>>> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most >>>>>> cases. >>>>>> >>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get >>>>>> this >>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the >>>>>> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in >>>>>> any >>>>>> way >>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >>>> oppinion >>>>>> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use >>>>>> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair >>>>>> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a >>>> while. >>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I >>>>>> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their >>>>>> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, >>>>>> human's >>>>>> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of >>>>>> habit >>>>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >>>> feature >>>>>> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not >>>> sure >>>>>> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the >>>>>> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac >>>>>> user, >>>>>> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who >>>>>> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that >>>>>> works >>>>>> for >>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing >>>>>> they >>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side >>>>>> of >>>>>> the pond... >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only >>>>>>> plus >>>>>>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> find >>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to >>>>>>> ease >>>>>>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with >>>>>>> you, >>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone >>>> make >>>>>>> the transition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>>>>> remind me >>>>>>>> of windows are as follows. >>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> it already says edit text. >>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >>>> intuitive >>>>>>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to >>>>>>>> sighties. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>>>>>> progression >>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>>>>> glad I >>>>>>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
