I can't speak for Pamela, but I would presume she would vent her
frustrations with the Lack of Accessibility with Apple's Products in
a different fashion than she vents on this List. They are two totally
different forums. I mean. Would you respond to your Employer like you
would your Parents (I'm presuming they are not the same people)?
At 08:28 PM 10/19/2014, you wrote:
I don't recall people saying that complaining to Apple would ruin
accessibility. It is how you complain and your perspective that are
being debated as far as I know.
--
Cheryl
I tried and tried to turn over a new leaf.
I got crumpled wads of tear-stained paper
thrown in the trash!
Then God gave me a new heart and life:
His joy for my despairing tears!
And now, every day:
"This I call to mind,
and therefore I have hope:
The steadfast love of the Lord
never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness."
(Lamentations 3:21-23 ESV)
> On Oct 19, 2014, at 9:34 PM, Brian Fischler <brianfisch...@me.com> wrote:
>
> Just an FYI to those of you who feel that complaining to Apple
will ruin accessibility which is a very laughable premise. I just
read an article on a main stream tech site where many in the
sighted world have lit up the Apple forums complaining about the
loss of the side bar in iTunes. I wonder if those people on that
list are wondering if Apple will just cease to exist because people
are complaining. Ridiculous concept. If you don't like changes to a
product you have purchase it shouldn't matter if you are sighted or
blind, say something. I personally don't mind losing the side bar,
but would like to have it as an option and who knows maybe like the
camera roll Apple will realize it made a mistake and bring it back.
I am just hoping we get a couple of VoiceOver fixes in IOS 8.1 as
it would actually be nice to dial a phone number on my iPhone.
> On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Buddy Brannan <bu...@brannan.name> wrote:
>
>> See, here's the thing. We *are* being treated like everyone
else. Now that we have mainstream access to mainstream products,
that also means that our bugs get stuck in the queue with everyone
else's bugs. They get prioritized along with everybody else's bugs.
And they get fixed in the schedule with everybody else's bugs. The
tradeoff we get for out of the box accessibility from a mainstream
manufacturer is that we don't get special releases or fixes
specific to our needs. We get them on the same schedule as everyone
else's bugs. Sometimes we may not like the priority our requests
get, but it's the price we pay for getting exactly what we've asked
for for years.
>>
>> Change is inevitable. iTunes has changed. I'm not a huge fan of
the change either, but there it is, and I can still use it, even if
I like it less. My like or dislike of it, however, doesn't have any
bearing on whether or not it's accessible. Same with Yosemite in
general; it's changed. I haven't really had any real problems with
it, generally speaking. I mostly like the changes, apart of course
for iTunes 12. But I'm definitely not seeing significant
accessibility impacts on what I do with OS X from day to day.
>>
>> Yep. Early betas were pretty awful. Early betas for iOS8 were
also horribly broken. But that's why they're betas. I've told
people who have asked me whether iOS8 is worth having, I've told
them that I have a pretty skewed view on that, since by comparison
to the early betas, it's really good, so I have no significant
complaints. Well...I have to say, I've recently had occasion to
look at iTunes Radio, and notice that it doesn't really read the
way they're supposed to. I expect it will get fixed in due course,
but, again, on Apple's schedule, along with everybody else's bugs,
in the queue, in its order, in priority with everybody else's bugs.
Because seriously, if you think that we're the only ones dealing
with bugs, sometimes really inconvenient bugs, you're at best
naive, at worst delusional.
>>
>> Anyway, yes. We have gotten exactly what we've been asking for.
That sometimes means unpleasant side effects. Myself, I'm happy to
take the unpleasant side effects as a part of the whole package.
Does this make me an Apple apologist? Does this mean that I'm
willing to settle for the crumbs from the table, as it were, and am
content with my lot as a second-class citizen? far from it. It
means I recognize that my problems are a subset of all the problems
that Apple is dealing with to make things work, sometimes in the
face of pretty significant change.
>>
>> Absolutely send notes to the accessibility team. But if you do,
be specific. If you can't be specific, don't bother, because no one
can fix bugs without specific ways to reproduce them.
>>
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: bu...@brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Pamela Francis
<gypsykitt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In the answer to a couple of your questions, ask for a company
making their products usable by the disabled, do you or do you not
remember what sharp did for us with talking clocks and calculators?
Do you also know that Panasonic makes optional talking caller ID
in its cordless phones? For years swans foods offered all of their
catalogs in braille along with their cooking directions as one
could also read on their boxes. It is not unreasonable or pompous
to expect to be treated the same as anyone else in the same store
paying the same money for the same product. If you consider that
pompous, you must be living with your parents who do everything for
you. I do not. I've lived away from my family since 1974, then
married, raise two children and have four grandchildren. I've been
through the times where we didn't as much as have digital readings
on elevators or braille on hotel room doors. I travel anywhere I
want to go, do anything I want to do. I do not expect special
treatment. I ask for what I need.
>>>
>>> Pam Francis
>>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:10 PM, The Believer
<ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> That is a first. The general public now dictates what the
disabled public gets? Apple develops products for the mainstream
market...and they also have enabled these same products to be
usable by the disabled. Can amy other comppany claim that?
>>>
>>> We all can walk into any Apple store along with the sighted
general public and buy the same products they do and use the same
products alongside them.
>>>
>>> And if we have an issue with our product, we can walk into any
Apple store or cal their toll free number and get the same assistance.
>>>
>>> Why should we expect any different treatment? Because we are
blind? That, IMO, is shortsightedness and perhaps even pompous. It
certainly will not get one very far.
>>>
>>> No one is glossing over anything. On the other hand, some are
over the top downright unreasonable.
>>>
>>> From The Believer. . .
>>> . . . what if it were true?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>
>>>> On 10/19/2014 2:02 PM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I'm normally not one to complain for the sake of complaining.
I am a realist. I know that we as a market are a minority within
Apple's customer base. I will give them credit where it's due. They
did take the lead in accessibility. However, mainstream society has
caught on to the fact that Apple products are accessible to blind
people. That in itself is a double edge sword. None of us want to
be put into a corner and told what is good for us by our cited
peers. we want general society to except what we can use on its
own merit showing them we can use products that they can use. there
are still those who think that Apple products are simply all we can
use. It's an all or nothing statement within the cited community as
much as it is within our community. If that same statement is made
with an aside a community, no one gripes. However if we say
anything, we're complaining. Apple has become aware of what the
cited community believes it's capable of doing for us, therefore they have
>>> become lackadaisical forcing us to settle for whatever they
throw at us, as it has been within Windows another third-party
screen readers. If I go in to the grocery store and purchase what
is supposed to be a complete packaged product, get it home find out
it isn't, take it back to the store; am I complaining because I
can't see? I don't think so.
>>>> What I'm getting at by this rant is if there is a given
feature supported by a given manufacturer that is designed for us
or any other accessibility community, it should be fully featured
and attended to with the same fervor as is done for the majority of
its customer base. The fact that they maintain an accessibility
line within itself on its face is a good thing. However, if those
people truly have no say as to how things are done, are they there
only for lipservice? I'm not willing to walk into a store, pay the
same price for a product that my cited peers do and not have a
right to complain about its functionality whether it's for me or
for my cited peers. We as a blind community for too many years have
been told we had to settle for second place. In many cases prior to
the Internet we didn't have a means to communicate with people are
issues, therefore we were forced to settle. That is no longer the
case. To those who choose to regale the things that Apple does without being w
>>> illing to admit apples faults, you are hurting all of us. Take
that for what it's worth.
>>>>
>>>> Pam Francis
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, The Believer
<ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I did not have a disastrous experience. I had just gotten a
new Macbook with Mountain Lion and Mavericks came out shortly after
that. And history repeats itself today with Yosemite.
>>>>
>>>> There were many complaints about Mavericks. Meanwhile, I
worked with ML, trying to forget Windows. Finally I upgraded to
Mavericks about a month ago! (smiles)
>>>>
>>>> I am still learning to use the Mac but it may not take me as
long to move to Yosemite. Maybe a month? I will install iOS 8 at
the same time but not intil both are better behaved.
>>>>
>>>> From The Believer. . .
>>>> . . . what if it were true?
>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/19/2014 12:15 PM, Christine Grassman wrote:
>>>>> I agree. While I would stop short of placing Apple on a
pedestal, as no one or company is worthy of that level of
responsibility, I am realistic about the varying preferences and
needs of a customer base consisting of millions of people, and I am
steadfastly grateful for Apple and its integral part in allowing me
to complete the essential tasks of my job and to enjoy much of what
my sighted peers enjoy on a reasonably equitable playing field out of the box.
>>>>> I intend to write to Apple as someone who continues to
appreciate its devices and software a great deal, and urge it not
to forget little me and those like me.
>>>>> I think any "absolutist" or all-or-nothing statements do no good.
>>>>> I decided after a disastrous experience with Mavericks when
it was first released that I would never again update immediately
after a first release. I am anxious to avail myself of continuity,
hand off, iBooks, and answering calls on my MacBook, but I can
wait. I know for a fact that a VoiceOver lag will bother me in the
extreme, and the very first thing I did was read Applevis's article
on the bugs, even though I had no intention of updating right
away. I am currently content, and I await Yosemite's evolution.
>>>>> Christine
>>>
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