And this just proves people will hear exactly what they want to hear. Nowhere did I say that we shouldn't ask for fixes, point out problelms that need fixed, or anything of the sort. Trust the system? Who ever said that? Not me.
-- Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA Phone: 814-860-3194 Mobile: 814-431-0962 Email: bu...@brannan.name > On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:08 PM, Robin <robin-mel...@comcast.net> wrote: > > In my humble opinion, I don't agree with your assessment as it pertains to > mainstream accessibility (Out of the Box). If these mainstream products are > going to be incorporated into Public Education settings, and people with > disabilities are going to be mainstreamed, how can Apple products be > recommended if said population can't perform the same task as their Sighted > (Ol'Sighty) counterparts. > > Apple products are currently incorporated in Special Education areas such as > AAC and VIto mention a few. > > > If these products were exclusively and/or solely going to be used for > personal use, you might have a point, but that's not the case. > > Have you ever heard the saying, "A closed mouth doesn't get fed" or how about > "Trust the system" or "Wait your Turn", I could go on and on > (Has your Co-Host, Alena of TripleClickHome recommended any Apple products > for her VI Students? What about your friend, Allison of the > TechDoctorPodcast?) > > At 04:33 PM 10/19/2014, you wrote: >> See, here's the thing. We *are* being treated like everyone else. Now that >> we have mainstream access to mainstream products, that also means that our >> bugs get stuck in the queue with everyone else's bugs. They get prioritized >> along with everybody else's bugs. And they get fixed in the schedule with >> everybody else's bugs. The tradeoff we get for out of the box accessibility >> from a mainstream manufacturer is that we don't get special releases or >> fixes specific to our needs. We get them on the same schedule as everyone >> else's bugs. Sometimes we may not like the priority our requests get, but >> it's the price we pay for getting exactly what we've asked for for years. >> >> Change is inevitable. iTunes has changed. I'm not a huge fan of the change >> either, but there it is, and I can still use it, even if I like it less. My >> like or dislike of it, however, doesn't have any bearing on whether or not >> it's accessible. Same with Yosemite in general; it's changed. I haven't >> really had any real problems with it, generally speaking. I mostly like the >> changes, apart of course for iTunes 12. But I'm definitely not seeing >> significant accessibility impacts on what I do with OS X from day to day. >> >> Yep. Early betas were pretty awful. Early betas for iOS8 were also horribly >> broken. But that's why they're betas. I've told people who have asked me >> whether iOS8 is worth having, I've told them that I have a pretty skewed >> view on that, since by comparison to the early betas, it's really good, so I >> have no significant complaints. Well...I have to say, I've recently had >> occasion to look at iTunes Radio, and notice that it doesn't really read the >> way they're supposed to. I expect it will get fixed in due course, but, >> again, on Apple's schedule, along with everybody else's bugs, in the queue, >> in its order, in priority with everybody else's bugs. Because seriously, if >> you think that we're the only ones dealing with bugs, sometimes really >> inconvenient bugs, you're at best naive, at worst delusional. >> >> Anyway, yes. We have gotten exactly what we've been asking for. That >> sometimes means unpleasant side effects. Myself, I'm happy to take the >> unpleasant side effects as a part of the whole package. Does this make me an >> Apple apologist? Does this mean that I'm willing to settle for the crumbs >> from the table, as it were, and am content with my lot as a second-class >> citizen? far from it. It means I recognize that my problems are a subset of >> all the problems that Apple is dealing with to make things work, sometimes >> in the face of pretty significant change. >> >> Absolutely send notes to the accessibility team. But if you do, be specific. >> If you can't be specific, don't bother, because no one can fix bugs without >> specific ways to reproduce them. >> >> -- >> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA >> Phone: 814-860-3194 >> Mobile: 814-431-0962 >> Email: bu...@brannan.name >> >> >> >> > On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Pamela Francis <gypsykitt...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > In the answer to a couple of your questions, ask for a company making >> > their products usable by the disabled, do you or do you not remember what >> > sharp did for us with talking clocks and calculators? Do you also know >> > that Panasonic makes optional talking caller ID in its cordless phones? >> > For years swans foods offered all of their catalogs in braille along with >> > their cooking directions as one could also read on their boxes. It is not >> > unreasonable or pompous to expect to be treated the same as anyone else in >> > the same store paying the same money for the same product. If you consider >> > that pompous, you must be living with your parents who do everything for >> > you. I do not. I've lived away from my family since 1974, then married, >> > raise two children and have four grandchildren. I've been through the >> > times where we didn't as much as have digital readings on elevators or >> > braille on hotel room doors. I travel anywhere I want to go, do anything I >> > want to do. I do not expect special treatment. I ask for what I need. >> > >> > Pam Francis >> > >> > On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:10 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > That is a first. The general public now dictates what the disabled public >> > gets? Apple develops products for the mainstream market...and they also >> > have enabled these same products to be usable by the disabled. Can amy >> > other comppany claim that? >> > >> > We all can walk into any Apple store along with the sighted general >> > public and buy the same products they do and use the same products >> > alongside them. >> > >> > And if we have an issue with our product, we can walk into any Apple >> > store or cal their toll free number and get the same assistance. >> > >> > Why should we expect any different treatment? Because we are blind? That, >> > IMO, is shortsightedness and perhaps even pompous. It certainly will not >> > get one very far. >> > >> > No one is glossing over anything. On the other hand, some are over the >> > top downright unreasonable. >> > >> > From The Believer. . . >> > . . . what if it were true? >> > ancient.ali...@icloud.com >> > >> >> On 10/19/2014 2:02 PM, Pamela Francis wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm normally not one to complain for the sake of complaining. I am a >> >> realist. I know that we as a market are a minority within Apple's >> >> customer base. I will give them credit where it's due. They did take the >> >> lead in accessibility. However, mainstream society has caught on to the >> >> fact that Apple products are accessible to blind people. That in itself >> >> is a double edge sword. None of us want to be put into a corner and told >> >> what is good for us by our cited peers. we want general society to >> >> except what we can use on its own merit showing them we can use products >> >> that they can use. there are still those who think that Apple products >> >> are simply all we can use. It's an all or nothing statement within the >> >> cited community as much as it is within our community. If that same >> >> statement is made with an aside a community, no one gripes. However if >> >> we say anything, we're complaining. Apple has become aware of what the >> >> cited community believes it's capable of doing for us, therefore they have >> > become lackadaisical forcing us to settle for whatever they throw at us, >> > as it has been within Windows another third-party screen readers. If I go >> > in to the grocery store and purchase what is supposed to be a complete >> > packaged product, get it home find out it isn't, take it back to the >> > store; am I complaining because I can't see? I don't think so. >> >> What I'm getting at by this rant is if there is a given feature supported >> >> by a given manufacturer that is designed for us or any other >> >> accessibility community, it should be fully featured and attended to with >> >> the same fervor as is done for the majority of its customer base. The >> >> fact that they maintain an accessibility line within itself on its face >> >> is a good thing. However, if those people truly have no say as to how >> >> things are done, are they there only for lipservice? I'm not willing to >> >> walk into a store, pay the same price for a product that my cited peers >> >> do and not have a right to complain about its functionality whether it's >> >> for me or for my cited peers. We as a blind community for too many years >> >> have been told we had to settle for second place. In many cases prior to >> >> the Internet we didn't have a means to communicate with people are >> >> issues, therefore we were forced to settle. That is no longer the case. >> >> To those who choose to regale the things that Apple does without being w >> > illing to admit apples faults, you are hurting all of us. Take that for >> > what it's worth. >> >> >> >> Pam Francis >> >> >> >> On Oct 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I did not have a disastrous experience. I had just gotten a new Macbook >> >> with Mountain Lion and Mavericks came out shortly after that. And history >> >> repeats itself today with Yosemite. >> >> >> >> There were many complaints about Mavericks. Meanwhile, I worked with ML, >> >> trying to forget Windows. Finally I upgraded to Mavericks about a month >> >> ago! (smiles) >> >> >> >> I am still learning to use the Mac but it may not take me as long to >> >> move to Yosemite. Maybe a month? I will install iOS 8 at the same time >> >> but not intil both are better behaved. >> >> >> >> From The Believer. . . >> >> . . . what if it were true? >> >> ancient.ali...@icloud.com >> >> >> >>> On 10/19/2014 12:15 PM, Christine Grassman wrote: >> >>> I agree. While I would stop short of placing Apple on a pedestal, as no >> >>> one or company is worthy of that level of responsibility, I am realistic >> >>> about the varying preferences and needs of a customer base consisting of >> >>> millions of people, and I am steadfastly grateful for Apple and its >> >>> integral part in allowing me to complete the essential tasks of my job >> >>> and to enjoy much of what my sighted peers enjoy on a reasonably >> >>> equitable playing field out of the box. >> >>> I intend to write to Apple as someone who continues to appreciate its >> >>> devices and software a great deal, and urge it not to forget little me >> >>> and those like me. >> >>> I think any "absolutist" or all-or-nothing statements do no good. >> >>> I decided after a disastrous experience with Mavericks when it was first >> >>> released that I would never again update immediately after a first >> >>> release. I am anxious to avail myself of continuity, hand off, iBooks, >> >>> and answering calls on my MacBook, but I can wait. I know for a fact >> >>> that a VoiceOver lag will bother me in the extreme, and the very first >> >>> thing I did was read Applevis's article on the bugs, even though I had >> >>> no intention of updating right away. I am currently content, and I >> >>> await Yosemite's evolution. >> >>> Christine >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> > "MacVisionaries" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> > "MacVisionaries" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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